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Old 11-14-2012, 09:43 AM   #70981
procycle
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Originally Posted by neo1piv014 View Post
I'd also be curious to see how much a TM40 costs at factory prices vs. the BST40 they're putting in now. I mean, the pumper is $450, but I bet buying the stock carb from the factory isn't far from it either.
Unfortunately, the TM40 would never meet federal emissions standards.
If emissions weren't in the equation the DR never would have had a CV carb in the first place.
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Old 11-14-2012, 09:58 AM   #70982
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Originally Posted by eakins View Post
The whole Econtrons FI thing started here
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=725795
MXrob had his FI microsquirt thing going already but also tried this system.
At this point I had hoped a true plug and play FI system would be available for the DR but alas it is not.

Matt at Ecotrons helped a ton but for some reason he's not heading to the last step and creating true PnP systems from his biz??? He did for the the Ninja 250 but that's it. Not sure 100% why as his kits are only for install/fabricator pros and thus this marginalizes his biz vrs selling a bolt on system and thus much wider acceptance.

The guys at DRriders have done a ton, but the momentum has also stalled their. It's sorta like Matt just said here ya go, this is what I have but figure it all out and then get back to me. Not really the way to bring a product to market...as it's not.

I'm bummed and will eventually buy someone elses FI 650 thumper (i'm convinced of the technology and still have hope for the 660 Tenere or maybe Suzuki will update or possibly Kawi or Honda). For now my BST carb is working well enough.
Making a carbureted anything into fuel injected isn’t as easy as it sounds. We build custom fuel injection for some of our high HP blown boats. It is a pain in the ass!

Basically, we buy a blank fuel injection unit that can handle 4-10 cylinders. We buy our processors from a company that builds them for trick airplanes (like Red Bull racing planes). We run an open loop system only because on boats there are water cooled exhaust and A/F meters don’t read correctly when they are being constantly cooled. Also, gas mileage isn’t an issue with a boat!

We build our own wire harnesses, injection rails, plumb all fuel lines, then we have to build a fuel map from scratch on the dyno. Can take up to a week. Obviously, if you build another motor EXACTLY the same you can use the same map. But, most times even if you are rebuilding an engine something is going to change. Then you have to tweak the fuel map to respond.

This is one of our 1200HP boat engines. We try hard to hide wires, but there is a loom about 2 inches in diameter with wires running off the back of the engine then back forward to the processor.

The issues that I see with a DR are: finding places for all the sensors, finding room for a processor with a wire loom, having a fuel pump, regulator and return lines. Making a throttle body with 1 or 2 injectors and a fuel rail.

Like many have found on here: no two DRs seem to require the same carb settings. The same would hold true for the fuel injection. Therefore it would have to be user adjustable. And it would be hard to adjust without an Eddy Brake dyno or something similar. Unlike a car you can’t ride down the road looking at a laptop.

Could it be done. Yes, but someone making an aftermarket version would require a lot of time spent which would drive the price up. Then you can only hope they are using quality components. Even having done FI for V8 engines- I wouldn’t even try to tackle the DR.

Like someone else said: if Suzuki made it I doubt the price difference would be much. It isn’t like this would be their first FI bike! I think their sport bikes have been FI since 1999 so they should have an understanding by now! I personally would love to see the DR fuel injected. I have owned other fuel injected bikes and have NEVER had an issue with them.
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Old 11-14-2012, 10:33 AM   #70983
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[QUOTE=Mongle;20042582]And it would be hard to adjust without an Eddy Brake dyno or something similar. Unlike a car you can
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Old 11-14-2012, 10:39 AM   #70984
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I don't doubt building FI systems from scrtach, like for that boat, is alot of work but Econtrons has done most of the correct part sourcing in 1 package (say 95% of the job).

What is needed is the finished adapters and brackets to bolt it all together vrs making them yourself. It's that last 5% that keeps this from being accepted.

As for FI tunes, the the system can be programed at a baseline and it ships that way. It might even be offered 2 ways, stock muffler & after-market. That will probably work for most and you can load other tunes if you want to tweak.

My point is Matt has done 95% of the work but it's that last 5% that keeps him from selling any to the DR crowd.
I don't get that? If i had figured out 95% of something, I sure would push/pay to get that last 5% done so i could start selling some of these kits. He has a willing and waiting market with $ to spend. PC would pick it up for sure, but for now we buy TM40 carbs if we want better.

Like i said I'm bummed at this point there is not a kit to buy. When i posted that FI question way back when I actually did not expect to see a company offering something. It was more a future oriented question, not a wow it's here now. Then when Ecotrons was shown to me and Matt was willing to try and make it work, I thought OK this is going to happen. Now fast forward to it being 5% incomplete and looking like it never will be, yeah that's tough seeing something right in front of you that you quite reach.

At this point in the waiting game, if one of the Japanese 3 (no 660 tenere in the US) did release a modern FI 650 thumper, i'd just start going down that path of owning a FI Japanese 650 (I like the Huskies but prefer Japanese tech). Waiting for Yamaha has gotten old as is hoping this system will be available for our DRs. I'd really to see Honda use that new 500X twin in an offroad suspension bike (ie USD forks, spoked wheels, rerouted exhaust). http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=840842
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eakins screwed with this post 11-14-2012 at 10:53 AM
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Old 11-14-2012, 11:05 AM   #70985
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As with any project- The last 5% is always the hardest!

I looked at Ecotrons 400-800cc kit.

That kit looks like they are close... They need to get away from the closed loop system for bikes.
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Old 11-14-2012, 11:21 AM   #70986
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongle View Post
As with any project- The last 5% is always the hardest!

I looked at Ecotrons 400-800cc kit.

That kit looks like they are close... They need to get away from the closed loop system for bikes.

From what I've gathered, it's down to those specialized brackets and the tuning. The tuning is a fairly simple thing to distribute and update, and once they've gotten a respectable tune down for one or two DR650's that are mostly stock, then that little O2 sensor can self update about 99% of every DR650 they'll put it on. Besides, anyone willing to do carb jets and fiddle with needles is probably willing to plug a laptop into a box and click "update" a few times to find the exact map they need. Besides, maps will be prolific once those kits get any kind of adoption. Ecotronics just needs to get those last couple brackets fabbed up and included. I'd venture that the DR650 market is just as big, if not bigger, than the Ninja 250 market, and they've got that as a kit.
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Old 11-14-2012, 12:10 PM   #70987
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Originally Posted by neo1piv014 View Post
From what I've gathered, it's down to those specialized brackets and the tuning. The tuning is a fairly simple thing to distribute and update, and once they've gotten a respectable tune down for one or two DR650's that are mostly stock, then that little O2 sensor can self update about 99% of every DR650 they'll put it on. Besides, anyone willing to do carb jets and fiddle with needles is probably willing to plug a laptop into a box and click "update" a few times to find the exact map they need. Besides, maps will be prolific once those kits get any kind of adoption. Ecotronics just needs to get those last couple brackets fabbed up and included. I'd venture that the DR650 market is just as big, if not bigger, than the Ninja 250 market, and they've got that as a kit.

I wonder if Procycle would be interested in fabbing up the brackets and everything that's not included and selling it as a kit, with or without the Ecotronics kit, similar to what they have for the TM-40 (though a lot more in-depth).
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Old 11-14-2012, 12:18 PM   #70988
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as with any project- the last 5% is always the hardest!
+1
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Old 11-14-2012, 12:31 PM   #70989
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I wonder if Procycle would be interested in fabbing up the brackets and everything that's not included and selling it as a kit, with or without the Ecotronics kit, similar to what they have for the TM-40 (though a lot more in-depth).
Not until there is a LOT more development. I don't want to be the one who has to try to provide support for installation and tuning. We looked at the Ecotrons (I have 2 full kits here). We installed a system on one bike and got as far as getting it to run but not far enough that you could ride it anywhere.

IMO it needs a lot more than brackets and such. About half of the components had fitment problems that would have to be overcome to be suitable for a 'kit form' product. Just a couple examples - the throttle body needed extensive machine work and modification just to be made usable and the fuel pressure regulator didn't even have hose barb ridges to hold the high pressure hoses in place. Also, there's precious little space on the DR650 for the electronics and fuel pump.

To be fair, Ecotrons has sourced some improved components since then and I believe they were working on an improved throttle body. Still, before I would get excited about a DR650 FI kit the whole thing would have to be much more compact and simplified.
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Old 11-14-2012, 12:33 PM   #70990
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongle View Post
As with any project- The last 5% is always the hardest!

I looked at Ecotrons 400-800cc kit.

That kit looks like they are close... They need to get away from the closed loop system for bikes.
i do agree.
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Old 11-14-2012, 12:36 PM   #70991
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I wonder how Ecotrons stays in biz then if they really don't have something viable to sell to customers? If you're saying that last 5% is not that easy to finish then no way the average Joe is gonna touch this. Maybe it's just a side project for Matt so no big deal...he sells 2 kits a year and calls it good.

When i look at aircooled FI bikes like the TU250 and the XT250 or even FI KTMs i don't see that much in the way of electronics hanging all over the place. Maybe this stuff is all just well hidden or the black Mukuni FI box (where the carb would be) does multiple things to save space, where the Ecotrons kit is using individual parts for everything? Not sure i'm no FI expert. I wonder if Mikuni FI bodies are adaptable to other bikes?

Basicly what you're saying is don't hold your breath expecting a FI for the DR is ever.
That reaffirms to me that I look in the future towards a new Japanese FI 650 bike to fulfill my FI desire.
Since my DR is so modded at this point but not worth alot, i'll keep it for motard fun.

I truely hope Suzuki redoes the DR with FI and better suspension as i'm a fan of Suzuki products.
I'm not brand loyal however and so i'll still buy a Honda ,Kawi or Yamaha is they produce and sell it in the US 1st.
Honda and Kawi need to address their 650 thumpers sooner than later too.
Yamaha figured it out in 2008 but they still have their heads up their asses...and the irony is the 660 Tenere is avaialble in mexico.

Quote:
Originally Posted by procycle View Post
Not until there is a LOT more development. I don't want to be the one who has to try to provide support for installation and tuning. We looked at the Ecotrons (I have 2 full kits here). We installed a system on one bike and got as far as getting it to run but not far enough that you could ride it anywhere.

IMO it needs a lot more than brackets and such. About half of the components had fitment problems that would have to be overcome to be suitable for a 'kit form' product. Just a couple examples - the throttle body needed extensive machine work and modification just to be made usable and the fuel pressure regulator didn't even have hose barb ridges to hold the high pressure hoses in place. Also, there's precious little space on the DR650 for the electronics and fuel pump.

To be fair, Ecotrons has sourced some improved components since then and I believe they were working on an improved throttle body. Still, before I would get excited about a DR650 FI kit the whole thing would have to be much more compact and simplified.
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Old 11-14-2012, 12:47 PM   #70992
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Matt at Ecotrons helped a ton but for some reason he's not heading to the last step and creating true PnP systems from his biz???
It looks like a PnP system to me for the DR:
Quote:
Note, only 42mm throttle body has been customzied for certain bikes like Suzuki DR650.
I don't see why you would regard this system as not fully developed; which are the aspects that you believe need further refinement?
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Old 11-14-2012, 12:51 PM   #70993
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It looks like a PnP system to me for the DR:
I don't see why you would regard this system as not fully developed; which are the aspects that you believe need further refinement?
If Jeff @ PC says it's not there (his bike is even not rideable)
then i take that for face value. If you see something in the kit he does not please let us know.
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Old 11-14-2012, 01:11 PM   #70994
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If Jeff @ PC says it's not there (his bike is even not rideable)
then i take that for face value. If you see something in the kit he does not please let us know.
I don't know what problems Procycle had with the EFI kit; they were never monitored so none of us can tell how severe they were.

I simply followed the adventures of RCthirty on DRriders as he installed the kit and made it work; he had no prior specialised knowledge of EFI systems, and the ecotrons system is working fine on his DR. The only hurdle that I foresee is attaching the O2 sensor to the exhaust pipe, a procedure that entails cutting and welding the pipe -- but Ecotrons has stated that the system can be run open loop, without the O2 sensor.

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Old 11-14-2012, 01:18 PM   #70995
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I don't know what problems Procycle had with the EFI kit; they were never monitored so none of us can tell how severe they were.

I simply followed the adventures of RCthirty on DRriders as he installed the kit and made it work; he had no prior specialised knowledge of EFI systems, and the ecotrons systems is working fine on his DR. The only hurdle that I foresee is attaching the O2 sensor to the exhaust pipe, a procedure that entails cutting and welding the pipe -- but Ecotrons has stated that the system can be run open loop, without the O2 sensor.
no idea. maybe Jeff can chime back in. sounds like you got it to work just fine. you're the 1st person i've read about who said, i bought the kit and just bolted it up. easy enough and it works just fine.
got any pics of that area of your bike so we can see how it looks.
i do see this on ecotrons site. http://www.ecotrons.com/400cc_to_800...e_EFI_kit.html

News: We now have 38mm, 42mm, 45mm, 50mm, 55mm, 60mm, and 65mm throttle bodies to fit different size engines. Note, only 42mm throttle body has been customzied for certain bikes like Suzuki DR650. For other throttle bodies, you may need to do some mechanical adaptations.

Note: for DR650, we are still optimizing the close loop fuel. This motor does not like 14.7 AFR in many cases.
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