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Old 11-14-2012, 01:39 PM   #70996
procycle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eakins View Post
I wonder how Ecotrons stays in biz then if they really don't have something viable to sell to customers? If you're saying that last 5% is not that easy to finish then no way the average Joe is gonna touch this.
Yeah, IMO it's not suitable for the average Joe. The Ecotrons is certainly viable for a technically oriented person who is willing to spend the time and effort to get it installed and dialed in and who will get a deep enough understanding to do their own diagnosis down the road. Lots of them have been installed on 250 Ninjas and various scooters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eakins View Post
If Jeff @ PC says it's not there (his bike is even not rideable)
then i take that for face value.
It's definitely not Plug and Play. I have no doubt that if we had invested a bunch more time in it we would have gotten the bike to a 'ridable' stage. This was last winter so there's probably current improvements I don't know about. Here's the thing - I was looking at this as an opportunity to create a product in kit form that a reasonably intelligent average DR rider could install and be happy with. That's a goal that Matt at Ecotrons shares. After we got it to the running stage I made the decision that it was too far away from being PnP for me to invest any more time and effort. It's my responsibility to make projects like this cost effective and eventually profitable. I didn't see that happening for us so I pulled the plug.

Hopefully, Ecotrons and those folks who are working with the system will raise it up to a level where it can be a truely PnP product that can sell at a price that will support distribution through dealers.

If I just wanted to fuel inject my own bike for the fun of the challenge then I think the Ecotrons would be worth considering. Then again, there's a lot deeper pool of knowledge around the MicroSquirt and I would be more comfortable adapting existing Japanese motorcycle parts than trying to use the Chinese components we have.
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Old 11-14-2012, 01:48 PM   #70997
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eakins View Post
you're the 1st person i've read about who said, i bought the kit and just bolted it up. easy enough and it works just fine.
Oops, misunderstanding: I never said that I bought the EFI kit or installed it -- I am not interested in doing either at this point in time since I believe that the DR has other, bigger, and more fundamental problems.

I simply followed the installation thread from RCthirty, and it seemed very doable. I hadn't read unsuccessful installation reports from other people, so I was left with the impression that there we no major hurdles.

Maybe the problem with EFI kits is the fact that the vast majority of people are far more adept with mechanical devices than with electronic ones -- they feel comfortable changing jets in a carb, but would balk at updating firmware on an EFI CPU, or creating new fueling maps.
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:46 PM   #70998
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnkol View Post
Oops, misunderstanding: I never said that I bought the EFI kit or installed it -- I am not interested in doing either at this point in time since I believe that the DR has other, bigger, and more fundamental problems.

I simply followed the installation thread from RCthirty, and it seemed very doable. I hadn't read unsuccessful installation reports from other people, so I was left with the impression that there we no major hurdles.

Maybe the problem with EFI kits is the fact that the vast majority of people are far more adept with mechanical devices than with electronic ones -- they feel comfortable changing jets in a carb, but would balk at updating firmware on an EFI CPU, or creating new fueling maps.
If you look at RCThirty's youtube page, within a couple minutes of the first video in that series, he had run into parts not fitting where they needed to go. I would consider buying it and trying to make it work if it was simply a "you need to buy these additional brackets and these length hoses" to get it to work. As it was, he was physically modifying the throttle body and having to force stuff around to make it all mount up. Now, he's got that all working, and that's friggen awesome, but when the list of stuff left to do to turn it into a kit includes "ship a product that fits in the bike people are buying it for," I think we're overstating the "readiness" of this product by saying it's 95% of the way there.
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Old 11-14-2012, 03:46 PM   #70999
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6k service. Oem carb with PC jet kit. 50 mpg and runs strong. Spark plug check. Anyone care to opine on the plug color as to lean mean or just right ?

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Old 11-14-2012, 03:55 PM   #71000
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Plug reading can be hard. You need to look down inside the plug at the porcelain where it meets the metal base. That is where you read the color for fuel mixture. And, I have seen some newer fuel additives make this almost impossible to do just from the additives giving the porcelain color. Oil burning can give false readings as well.

Also, you will only be reading the fuel mixture where you shut the engine off. If you shut it off at idle then that is all you will be reading. If you want to read mixture at wide open you need to do a wide open pull- chop throttle then shut engine off. Pull the plug before you start the bike back up.

And look at how many threads are showing heat (for heat range). Should be 3-5 threads showing heat. More threads with heat means you need a colder plug. Only 1-2 threads showing heat you need a hotter plug.

Here, this should make it all clear as mud! Good luck!

Mongle screwed with this post 11-14-2012 at 04:03 PM
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:08 PM   #71001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongle View Post
Also, you will only be reading the fuel mixture where you shut the engine off. If you shut it off at idle then that is all you will be reading. If you want to read mixture at wide open you need to do a wide open pull- chop throttle then shut engine off.
And, if you plan to try to read them for any tuning evaluation you should start with fresh new plugs installed in an already warmed up motor..
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:14 PM   #71002
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Understood thanks fellas. She running great. I think I'll leave it at that. Lol
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:28 PM   #71003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DockingPilot View Post
6k service. Oem carb with PC jet kit. 50 mpg and runs strong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DockingPilot View Post
Understood thanks fellas. She running great. I think I'll leave it at that. Lol
Running great while getting good fuel economy.
Together, these are the best indication that your carb setup is right where you want it.
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www.procycle.us - Everything for your DR650 and lots of other great stuff!
DR900 Big Bore Stroker buildup
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Old 11-14-2012, 05:44 PM   #71004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neo1piv014 View Post
If you look at RCThirty's youtube page, within a couple minutes of the first video in that series, he had run into parts not fitting where they needed to go.
RCthirty was simply documenting the entire customisation process: he, MXrob, and SteveSturdevant, were the three test subjects that got a generic Ecotrons EFI kit and were adapting it to the DR. Ecotrons made all the required modifications once they had been identified, and the final kit does not have any fitment issues.

At least that's how I read the whole story. The kit that you buy now does not need any additional parts to be fabricated or existing parts to be modified (apart from the O2 sensor in the exhaust). For me, that's plug-and-play; the additional steps that may need to be taken of setting up fuel maps or updating firmware is a non-issue.
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Old 11-14-2012, 06:09 PM   #71005
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Originally Posted by neo1piv014 View Post
Just looking at the number of people that made huge improvements to their suspension by swapping over DRZ400 parts, it's not like Suzuki would have to do a lot of R&D work to improve the DR650 in a major way. Hell, the community has already done most of the R&D for them. I mean, they could just go and do a bulk buy on 790cc pistons and release the DR650 as a DR790 instead. At factory prices, that wouldn't be much of a price jump, and thanks to the community, they know their base engine can handle it. I'd also be curious to see how much a TM40 costs at factory prices vs. the BST40 they're putting in now. I mean, the pumper is $450, but I bet buying the stock carb from the factory isn't far from it either.
They'd basically just have to take the battle proven mods that everyone's doing already and make that standard on the machine. I bet most people would be willing to pay another $1000 for a new bike to have it setup like that from the factory.
Suzuki's in dire financial straights right now...they've filed for chapter 11 bankruptcy on their car division, and don't seem willing to spend money for ANY real model changes. I just hope they stick around and keep making stuff period

It always seems like when a manufacturer changes a dual-sport model they make it heavier and more expensive, I'd love to see the 650 upgraded, but I wonder how much weight it would gain with liquid-cooling and fuel injection and all the associated electronics and complexity? And how much would the price go up?
I think thats the main reason Suzuki and Honda have left their 650's air cooled and carbureted.
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Old 11-14-2012, 06:18 PM   #71006
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Originally Posted by Sierra Thumper View Post
Suzuki's in dire financial straights right now...they've filed for chapter 11 bankruptcy on their car division, and don't seem willing to spend money for ANY real model changes. I just hope they stick around and keep making stuff period
Suzuki is fine it is only their American car distribution that is an issue. They are still making cars and selling them in the rest of the world, and will continue to make bikes, and come out with new ones for years to come.
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Old 11-14-2012, 06:37 PM   #71007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnkol View Post
The kit that you buy now does not need any additional parts to be fabricated or existing parts to be modified (apart from the O2 sensor in the exhaust). For me, that's plug-and-play; the additional steps that may need to be taken of setting up fuel maps or updating firmware is a non-issue.
That's not my idea of plug and play. I really think the whole idea is kind of over kill for the DR anyway, unless this sort of electronic tinkering appeals to you as fun.
I sure as heck am not interested if I have to finish programming the thing once I get it.
But if that's your thing, enjoy!
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Old 11-14-2012, 06:56 PM   #71008
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Originally Posted by Rumlover View Post
That's not my idea of plug and play. I really think the whole idea is kind of over kill for the DR anyway, unless this sort of electronic tinkering appeals to you as fun.
I sure as heck am not interested if I have to finish programming the thing once I get it.
But if that's your thing, enjoy!
I agree, if a person wants to invest that kinda money and time into a DR for the minimal overall gains vs a good bolt-on performance carb, they should prolly look at just selling the DR and getting a factory fuel injected dualsport, new or used, whatever they can afford.
The gains just arent worth the money and effort, unless you're doing it because you enjoy the wrenching process itself as much as any results.
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Old 11-14-2012, 07:06 PM   #71009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sierra Thumper View Post
Suzuki's in dire financial straights right now...they've filed for chapter 11 bankruptcy on their car division, and don't seem willing to spend money for ANY real model changes. I just hope they stick around and keep making stuff period

It always seems like when a manufacturer changes a dual-sport model they make it heavier and more expensive, I'd love to see the 650 upgraded, but I wonder how much weight it would gain with liquid-cooling and fuel injection and all the associated electronics and complexity? And how much would the price go up?
I think thats the main reason Suzuki and Honda have left their 650's air cooled and carbureted.
It just seems to me that people talk about these basic components on the 650 like they're costing Suzuki nothing to manufacture. It's not "look at this $600 FI kit for the bike, so the cost would have to go up by at least that much." I would love to see the difference in price between Suzuki buying the Mikuni BST40's for our bikes versus them using a modified version of a FI system they also have in use.
Hell, maybe they should just leave the DR650 as is, but I'd definitely like to see them do something crazy with the DRZ400. Bump up the displacement a tick to put it at the same level as the new Honda 500's, make it FI, and you've got something wicked as long as you can keep the weight about the same.
Honestly, even the "they added a few pounds" argument doesn't really make me pause. If gaining a few pounds is a big deal to you, then I bet you're the kind of person that feels guilty for wearing an extra sweatshirt underneath your riding jacket. Even the average crap I carry with me as part of my commute makes up more of a weight difference than most manufacturer changes. If I want to shave some weight off the traveling mass of my bike, I should consider running on a treadmill before taking off a luggage rack or passenger pegs.
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Old 11-14-2012, 07:11 PM   #71010
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Procycle "Saddlemen" seat break in

FYI: Since last Friday I've put 2500 miles on my DR meandering from Ohio towards Latin America. I have the Procycle "Saddlemen" seat with an Alaska leather skeepskin on top when it's not raining. After a couple of thousand miles it seems to begin to break in. Highway pegs help.

Here a pic from the NRAO VLA west of Socorro NM this afternoon. I left Columbus OH last Friday by way of Dallas.

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