ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Thumpers
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11-14-2012, 12:51 PM   #70996
eakins
Butler Maps
 
eakins's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2002
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Oddometer: 18,811
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnkol View Post
It looks like a PnP system to me for the DR:
I don't see why you would regard this system as not fully developed; which are the aspects that you believe need further refinement?
If Jeff @ PC says it's not there (his bike is even not rideable)
then i take that for face value. If you see something in the kit he does not please let us know.
__________________
Butler Maps - motorcycle maps for riders by riders -
Alaska
NM map COBDR AZBDR IDBDR South East map
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=598717
Butler Maps website:
http://www.butlermaps.com
eakins is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 01:11 PM   #70997
johnkol
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Oddometer: 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by eakins View Post
If Jeff @ PC says it's not there (his bike is even not rideable)
then i take that for face value. If you see something in the kit he does not please let us know.
I don't know what problems Procycle had with the EFI kit; they were never monitored so none of us can tell how severe they were.

I simply followed the adventures of RCthirty on DRriders as he installed the kit and made it work; he had no prior specialised knowledge of EFI systems, and the ecotrons system is working fine on his DR. The only hurdle that I foresee is attaching the O2 sensor to the exhaust pipe, a procedure that entails cutting and welding the pipe -- but Ecotrons has stated that the system can be run open loop, without the O2 sensor.

johnkol screwed with this post 11-14-2012 at 01:30 PM
johnkol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 01:18 PM   #70998
eakins
Butler Maps
 
eakins's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2002
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Oddometer: 18,811
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnkol View Post
I don't know what problems Procycle had with the EFI kit; they were never monitored so none of us can tell how severe they were.

I simply followed the adventures of RCthirty on DRriders as he installed the kit and made it work; he had no prior specialised knowledge of EFI systems, and the ecotrons systems is working fine on his DR. The only hurdle that I foresee is attaching the O2 sensor to the exhaust pipe, a procedure that entails cutting and welding the pipe -- but Ecotrons has stated that the system can be run open loop, without the O2 sensor.
no idea. maybe Jeff can chime back in. sounds like you got it to work just fine. you're the 1st person i've read about who said, i bought the kit and just bolted it up. easy enough and it works just fine.
got any pics of that area of your bike so we can see how it looks.
i do see this on ecotrons site. http://www.ecotrons.com/400cc_to_800...e_EFI_kit.html

News: We now have 38mm, 42mm, 45mm, 50mm, 55mm, 60mm, and 65mm throttle bodies to fit different size engines. Note, only 42mm throttle body has been customzied for certain bikes like Suzuki DR650. For other throttle bodies, you may need to do some mechanical adaptations.

Note: for DR650, we are still optimizing the close loop fuel. This motor does not like 14.7 AFR in many cases.
__________________
Butler Maps - motorcycle maps for riders by riders -
Alaska
NM map COBDR AZBDR IDBDR South East map
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=598717
Butler Maps website:
http://www.butlermaps.com
eakins is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 01:39 PM   #70999
procycle
Beastly Adventurer
 
procycle's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2007
Location: Center of the DR650 universe
Oddometer: 2,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by eakins View Post
I wonder how Ecotrons stays in biz then if they really don't have something viable to sell to customers? If you're saying that last 5% is not that easy to finish then no way the average Joe is gonna touch this.
Yeah, IMO it's not suitable for the average Joe. The Ecotrons is certainly viable for a technically oriented person who is willing to spend the time and effort to get it installed and dialed in and who will get a deep enough understanding to do their own diagnosis down the road. Lots of them have been installed on 250 Ninjas and various scooters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eakins View Post
If Jeff @ PC says it's not there (his bike is even not rideable)
then i take that for face value.
It's definitely not Plug and Play. I have no doubt that if we had invested a bunch more time in it we would have gotten the bike to a 'ridable' stage. This was last winter so there's probably current improvements I don't know about. Here's the thing - I was looking at this as an opportunity to create a product in kit form that a reasonably intelligent average DR rider could install and be happy with. That's a goal that Matt at Ecotrons shares. After we got it to the running stage I made the decision that it was too far away from being PnP for me to invest any more time and effort. It's my responsibility to make projects like this cost effective and eventually profitable. I didn't see that happening for us so I pulled the plug.

Hopefully, Ecotrons and those folks who are working with the system will raise it up to a level where it can be a truely PnP product that can sell at a price that will support distribution through dealers.

If I just wanted to fuel inject my own bike for the fun of the challenge then I think the Ecotrons would be worth considering. Then again, there's a lot deeper pool of knowledge around the MicroSquirt and I would be more comfortable adapting existing Japanese motorcycle parts than trying to use the Chinese components we have.
__________________
Clarke's second law of Egodynamics: "For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert." - Jasper Fforde
www.procycle.us - Everything for your DR650 and lots of other great stuff!
DR900 Big Bore Stroker buildup
TurboDiesel Corvette - go to the end to start at the beginning
procycle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 01:48 PM   #71000
johnkol
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Oddometer: 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by eakins View Post
you're the 1st person i've read about who said, i bought the kit and just bolted it up. easy enough and it works just fine.
Oops, misunderstanding: I never said that I bought the EFI kit or installed it -- I am not interested in doing either at this point in time since I believe that the DR has other, bigger, and more fundamental problems.

I simply followed the installation thread from RCthirty, and it seemed very doable. I hadn't read unsuccessful installation reports from other people, so I was left with the impression that there we no major hurdles.

Maybe the problem with EFI kits is the fact that the vast majority of people are far more adept with mechanical devices than with electronic ones -- they feel comfortable changing jets in a carb, but would balk at updating firmware on an EFI CPU, or creating new fueling maps.
johnkol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 02:46 PM   #71001
neo1piv014
ADV in training
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Oddometer: 619
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnkol View Post
Oops, misunderstanding: I never said that I bought the EFI kit or installed it -- I am not interested in doing either at this point in time since I believe that the DR has other, bigger, and more fundamental problems.

I simply followed the installation thread from RCthirty, and it seemed very doable. I hadn't read unsuccessful installation reports from other people, so I was left with the impression that there we no major hurdles.

Maybe the problem with EFI kits is the fact that the vast majority of people are far more adept with mechanical devices than with electronic ones -- they feel comfortable changing jets in a carb, but would balk at updating firmware on an EFI CPU, or creating new fueling maps.
If you look at RCThirty's youtube page, within a couple minutes of the first video in that series, he had run into parts not fitting where they needed to go. I would consider buying it and trying to make it work if it was simply a "you need to buy these additional brackets and these length hoses" to get it to work. As it was, he was physically modifying the throttle body and having to force stuff around to make it all mount up. Now, he's got that all working, and that's friggen awesome, but when the list of stuff left to do to turn it into a kit includes "ship a product that fits in the bike people are buying it for," I think we're overstating the "readiness" of this product by saying it's 95% of the way there.
__________________
_________________________
Ride videos
'01 DR650
"The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks."
neo1piv014 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 03:46 PM   #71002
DockingPilot
Hooked Up and Hard Over
 
DockingPilot's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2004
Location: Andover, N.J.
Oddometer: 9,605
6k service. Oem carb with PC jet kit. 50 mpg and runs strong. Spark plug check. Anyone care to opine on the plug color as to lean mean or just right ?

__________________
Frank Reinbold

"Every bike I ever had, was the best bike I ever had, when I had it"
DockingPilot is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 03:55 PM   #71003
Mongle
Knuckle dragger
 
Mongle's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2009
Location: North Carolina Y'all
Oddometer: 2,899
Plug reading can be hard. You need to look down inside the plug at the porcelain where it meets the metal base. That is where you read the color for fuel mixture. And, I have seen some newer fuel additives make this almost impossible to do just from the additives giving the porcelain color. Oil burning can give false readings as well.

Also, you will only be reading the fuel mixture where you shut the engine off. If you shut it off at idle then that is all you will be reading. If you want to read mixture at wide open you need to do a wide open pull- chop throttle then shut engine off. Pull the plug before you start the bike back up.

And look at how many threads are showing heat (for heat range). Should be 3-5 threads showing heat. More threads with heat means you need a colder plug. Only 1-2 threads showing heat you need a hotter plug.

Here, this should make it all clear as mud! Good luck!

Mongle screwed with this post 11-14-2012 at 04:03 PM
Mongle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 04:08 PM   #71004
procycle
Beastly Adventurer
 
procycle's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2007
Location: Center of the DR650 universe
Oddometer: 2,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongle View Post
Also, you will only be reading the fuel mixture where you shut the engine off. If you shut it off at idle then that is all you will be reading. If you want to read mixture at wide open you need to do a wide open pull- chop throttle then shut engine off.
And, if you plan to try to read them for any tuning evaluation you should start with fresh new plugs installed in an already warmed up motor..
__________________
Clarke's second law of Egodynamics: "For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert." - Jasper Fforde
www.procycle.us - Everything for your DR650 and lots of other great stuff!
DR900 Big Bore Stroker buildup
TurboDiesel Corvette - go to the end to start at the beginning
procycle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 04:14 PM   #71005
DockingPilot
Hooked Up and Hard Over
 
DockingPilot's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2004
Location: Andover, N.J.
Oddometer: 9,605
Understood thanks fellas. She running great. I think I'll leave it at that. Lol
__________________
Frank Reinbold

"Every bike I ever had, was the best bike I ever had, when I had it"
DockingPilot is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 04:28 PM   #71006
procycle
Beastly Adventurer
 
procycle's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2007
Location: Center of the DR650 universe
Oddometer: 2,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by DockingPilot View Post
6k service. Oem carb with PC jet kit. 50 mpg and runs strong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DockingPilot View Post
Understood thanks fellas. She running great. I think I'll leave it at that. Lol
Running great while getting good fuel economy.
Together, these are the best indication that your carb setup is right where you want it.
__________________
Clarke's second law of Egodynamics: "For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert." - Jasper Fforde
www.procycle.us - Everything for your DR650 and lots of other great stuff!
DR900 Big Bore Stroker buildup
TurboDiesel Corvette - go to the end to start at the beginning
procycle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 05:44 PM   #71007
johnkol
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Oddometer: 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by neo1piv014 View Post
If you look at RCThirty's youtube page, within a couple minutes of the first video in that series, he had run into parts not fitting where they needed to go.
RCthirty was simply documenting the entire customisation process: he, MXrob, and SteveSturdevant, were the three test subjects that got a generic Ecotrons EFI kit and were adapting it to the DR. Ecotrons made all the required modifications once they had been identified, and the final kit does not have any fitment issues.

At least that's how I read the whole story. The kit that you buy now does not need any additional parts to be fabricated or existing parts to be modified (apart from the O2 sensor in the exhaust). For me, that's plug-and-play; the additional steps that may need to be taken of setting up fuel maps or updating firmware is a non-issue.
johnkol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 06:09 PM   #71008
Sierra Thumper
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Oct 2012
Oddometer: 641
Quote:
Originally Posted by neo1piv014 View Post
Just looking at the number of people that made huge improvements to their suspension by swapping over DRZ400 parts, it's not like Suzuki would have to do a lot of R&D work to improve the DR650 in a major way. Hell, the community has already done most of the R&D for them. I mean, they could just go and do a bulk buy on 790cc pistons and release the DR650 as a DR790 instead. At factory prices, that wouldn't be much of a price jump, and thanks to the community, they know their base engine can handle it. I'd also be curious to see how much a TM40 costs at factory prices vs. the BST40 they're putting in now. I mean, the pumper is $450, but I bet buying the stock carb from the factory isn't far from it either.
They'd basically just have to take the battle proven mods that everyone's doing already and make that standard on the machine. I bet most people would be willing to pay another $1000 for a new bike to have it setup like that from the factory.
Suzuki's in dire financial straights right now...they've filed for chapter 11 bankruptcy on their car division, and don't seem willing to spend money for ANY real model changes. I just hope they stick around and keep making stuff period

It always seems like when a manufacturer changes a dual-sport model they make it heavier and more expensive, I'd love to see the 650 upgraded, but I wonder how much weight it would gain with liquid-cooling and fuel injection and all the associated electronics and complexity? And how much would the price go up?
I think thats the main reason Suzuki and Honda have left their 650's air cooled and carbureted.
__________________
"Don't get so concerned with the slab that you choose a turd for the dirt"- The Gospel as spoken by itrack
Sierra Thumper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 06:18 PM   #71009
RichBeBe
All Hail Seitan!!!
 
RichBeBe's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2004
Location: NYC
Oddometer: 6,234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sierra Thumper View Post
Suzuki's in dire financial straights right now...they've filed for chapter 11 bankruptcy on their car division, and don't seem willing to spend money for ANY real model changes. I just hope they stick around and keep making stuff period
Suzuki is fine it is only their American car distribution that is an issue. They are still making cars and selling them in the rest of the world, and will continue to make bikes, and come out with new ones for years to come.
__________________
"Remember that an enduro tests the endurance of three things: your machine, your body, and your wits. Only one has to fail to keep you from reaching the finish line." Cycle World March 1966
RichBeBe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 06:37 PM   #71010
Rumlover
Ed
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: Utah
Oddometer: 707
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnkol View Post
The kit that you buy now does not need any additional parts to be fabricated or existing parts to be modified (apart from the O2 sensor in the exhaust). For me, that's plug-and-play; the additional steps that may need to be taken of setting up fuel maps or updating firmware is a non-issue.
That's not my idea of plug and play. I really think the whole idea is kind of over kill for the DR anyway, unless this sort of electronic tinkering appeals to you as fun.
I sure as heck am not interested if I have to finish programming the thing once I get it.
But if that's your thing, enjoy!
Rumlover is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 05:29 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2015