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Old 11-14-2012, 12:21 PM   #70996
neo1piv014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongle View Post
As with any project- The last 5% is always the hardest!

I looked at Ecotrons 400-800cc kit.

That kit looks like they are close... They need to get away from the closed loop system for bikes.

From what I've gathered, it's down to those specialized brackets and the tuning. The tuning is a fairly simple thing to distribute and update, and once they've gotten a respectable tune down for one or two DR650's that are mostly stock, then that little O2 sensor can self update about 99% of every DR650 they'll put it on. Besides, anyone willing to do carb jets and fiddle with needles is probably willing to plug a laptop into a box and click "update" a few times to find the exact map they need. Besides, maps will be prolific once those kits get any kind of adoption. Ecotronics just needs to get those last couple brackets fabbed up and included. I'd venture that the DR650 market is just as big, if not bigger, than the Ninja 250 market, and they've got that as a kit.
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Old 11-14-2012, 01:10 PM   #70997
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neo1piv014 View Post
From what I've gathered, it's down to those specialized brackets and the tuning. The tuning is a fairly simple thing to distribute and update, and once they've gotten a respectable tune down for one or two DR650's that are mostly stock, then that little O2 sensor can self update about 99% of every DR650 they'll put it on. Besides, anyone willing to do carb jets and fiddle with needles is probably willing to plug a laptop into a box and click "update" a few times to find the exact map they need. Besides, maps will be prolific once those kits get any kind of adoption. Ecotronics just needs to get those last couple brackets fabbed up and included. I'd venture that the DR650 market is just as big, if not bigger, than the Ninja 250 market, and they've got that as a kit.

I wonder if Procycle would be interested in fabbing up the brackets and everything that's not included and selling it as a kit, with or without the Ecotronics kit, similar to what they have for the TM-40 (though a lot more in-depth).
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Old 11-14-2012, 01:18 PM   #70998
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mongle View Post
as with any project- the last 5% is always the hardest!
+1
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Old 11-14-2012, 01:31 PM   #70999
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Originally Posted by llamabomb View Post
I wonder if Procycle would be interested in fabbing up the brackets and everything that's not included and selling it as a kit, with or without the Ecotronics kit, similar to what they have for the TM-40 (though a lot more in-depth).
Not until there is a LOT more development. I don't want to be the one who has to try to provide support for installation and tuning. We looked at the Ecotrons (I have 2 full kits here). We installed a system on one bike and got as far as getting it to run but not far enough that you could ride it anywhere.

IMO it needs a lot more than brackets and such. About half of the components had fitment problems that would have to be overcome to be suitable for a 'kit form' product. Just a couple examples - the throttle body needed extensive machine work and modification just to be made usable and the fuel pressure regulator didn't even have hose barb ridges to hold the high pressure hoses in place. Also, there's precious little space on the DR650 for the electronics and fuel pump.

To be fair, Ecotrons has sourced some improved components since then and I believe they were working on an improved throttle body. Still, before I would get excited about a DR650 FI kit the whole thing would have to be much more compact and simplified.
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Old 11-14-2012, 01:33 PM   #71000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongle View Post
As with any project- The last 5% is always the hardest!

I looked at Ecotrons 400-800cc kit.

That kit looks like they are close... They need to get away from the closed loop system for bikes.
i do agree.
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Old 11-14-2012, 01:36 PM   #71001
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I wonder how Ecotrons stays in biz then if they really don't have something viable to sell to customers? If you're saying that last 5% is not that easy to finish then no way the average Joe is gonna touch this. Maybe it's just a side project for Matt so no big deal...he sells 2 kits a year and calls it good.

When i look at aircooled FI bikes like the TU250 and the XT250 or even FI KTMs i don't see that much in the way of electronics hanging all over the place. Maybe this stuff is all just well hidden or the black Mukuni FI box (where the carb would be) does multiple things to save space, where the Ecotrons kit is using individual parts for everything? Not sure i'm no FI expert. I wonder if Mikuni FI bodies are adaptable to other bikes?

Basicly what you're saying is don't hold your breath expecting a FI for the DR is ever.
That reaffirms to me that I look in the future towards a new Japanese FI 650 bike to fulfill my FI desire.
Since my DR is so modded at this point but not worth alot, i'll keep it for motard fun.

I truely hope Suzuki redoes the DR with FI and better suspension as i'm a fan of Suzuki products.
I'm not brand loyal however and so i'll still buy a Honda ,Kawi or Yamaha is they produce and sell it in the US 1st.
Honda and Kawi need to address their 650 thumpers sooner than later too.
Yamaha figured it out in 2008 but they still have their heads up their asses...and the irony is the 660 Tenere is avaialble in mexico.

Quote:
Originally Posted by procycle View Post
Not until there is a LOT more development. I don't want to be the one who has to try to provide support for installation and tuning. We looked at the Ecotrons (I have 2 full kits here). We installed a system on one bike and got as far as getting it to run but not far enough that you could ride it anywhere.

IMO it needs a lot more than brackets and such. About half of the components had fitment problems that would have to be overcome to be suitable for a 'kit form' product. Just a couple examples - the throttle body needed extensive machine work and modification just to be made usable and the fuel pressure regulator didn't even have hose barb ridges to hold the high pressure hoses in place. Also, there's precious little space on the DR650 for the electronics and fuel pump.

To be fair, Ecotrons has sourced some improved components since then and I believe they were working on an improved throttle body. Still, before I would get excited about a DR650 FI kit the whole thing would have to be much more compact and simplified.
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Old 11-14-2012, 01:47 PM   #71002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eakins View Post
Matt at Ecotrons helped a ton but for some reason he's not heading to the last step and creating true PnP systems from his biz???
It looks like a PnP system to me for the DR:
Quote:
Note, only 42mm throttle body has been customzied for certain bikes like Suzuki DR650.
I don't see why you would regard this system as not fully developed; which are the aspects that you believe need further refinement?
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Old 11-14-2012, 01:51 PM   #71003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnkol View Post
It looks like a PnP system to me for the DR:
I don't see why you would regard this system as not fully developed; which are the aspects that you believe need further refinement?
If Jeff @ PC says it's not there (his bike is even not rideable)
then i take that for face value. If you see something in the kit he does not please let us know.
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:11 PM   #71004
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Originally Posted by eakins View Post
If Jeff @ PC says it's not there (his bike is even not rideable)
then i take that for face value. If you see something in the kit he does not please let us know.
I don't know what problems Procycle had with the EFI kit; they were never monitored so none of us can tell how severe they were.

I simply followed the adventures of RCthirty on DRriders as he installed the kit and made it work; he had no prior specialised knowledge of EFI systems, and the ecotrons system is working fine on his DR. The only hurdle that I foresee is attaching the O2 sensor to the exhaust pipe, a procedure that entails cutting and welding the pipe -- but Ecotrons has stated that the system can be run open loop, without the O2 sensor.

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Old 11-14-2012, 02:18 PM   #71005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnkol View Post
I don't know what problems Procycle had with the EFI kit; they were never monitored so none of us can tell how severe they were.

I simply followed the adventures of RCthirty on DRriders as he installed the kit and made it work; he had no prior specialised knowledge of EFI systems, and the ecotrons systems is working fine on his DR. The only hurdle that I foresee is attaching the O2 sensor to the exhaust pipe, a procedure that entails cutting and welding the pipe -- but Ecotrons has stated that the system can be run open loop, without the O2 sensor.
no idea. maybe Jeff can chime back in. sounds like you got it to work just fine. you're the 1st person i've read about who said, i bought the kit and just bolted it up. easy enough and it works just fine.
got any pics of that area of your bike so we can see how it looks.
i do see this on ecotrons site. http://www.ecotrons.com/400cc_to_800...e_EFI_kit.html

News: We now have 38mm, 42mm, 45mm, 50mm, 55mm, 60mm, and 65mm throttle bodies to fit different size engines. Note, only 42mm throttle body has been customzied for certain bikes like Suzuki DR650. For other throttle bodies, you may need to do some mechanical adaptations.

Note: for DR650, we are still optimizing the close loop fuel. This motor does not like 14.7 AFR in many cases.
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:39 PM   #71006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eakins View Post
I wonder how Ecotrons stays in biz then if they really don't have something viable to sell to customers? If you're saying that last 5% is not that easy to finish then no way the average Joe is gonna touch this.
Yeah, IMO it's not suitable for the average Joe. The Ecotrons is certainly viable for a technically oriented person who is willing to spend the time and effort to get it installed and dialed in and who will get a deep enough understanding to do their own diagnosis down the road. Lots of them have been installed on 250 Ninjas and various scooters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eakins View Post
If Jeff @ PC says it's not there (his bike is even not rideable)
then i take that for face value.
It's definitely not Plug and Play. I have no doubt that if we had invested a bunch more time in it we would have gotten the bike to a 'ridable' stage. This was last winter so there's probably current improvements I don't know about. Here's the thing - I was looking at this as an opportunity to create a product in kit form that a reasonably intelligent average DR rider could install and be happy with. That's a goal that Matt at Ecotrons shares. After we got it to the running stage I made the decision that it was too far away from being PnP for me to invest any more time and effort. It's my responsibility to make projects like this cost effective and eventually profitable. I didn't see that happening for us so I pulled the plug.

Hopefully, Ecotrons and those folks who are working with the system will raise it up to a level where it can be a truely PnP product that can sell at a price that will support distribution through dealers.

If I just wanted to fuel inject my own bike for the fun of the challenge then I think the Ecotrons would be worth considering. Then again, there's a lot deeper pool of knowledge around the MicroSquirt and I would be more comfortable adapting existing Japanese motorcycle parts than trying to use the Chinese components we have.
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:48 PM   #71007
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Originally Posted by eakins View Post
you're the 1st person i've read about who said, i bought the kit and just bolted it up. easy enough and it works just fine.
Oops, misunderstanding: I never said that I bought the EFI kit or installed it -- I am not interested in doing either at this point in time since I believe that the DR has other, bigger, and more fundamental problems.

I simply followed the installation thread from RCthirty, and it seemed very doable. I hadn't read unsuccessful installation reports from other people, so I was left with the impression that there we no major hurdles.

Maybe the problem with EFI kits is the fact that the vast majority of people are far more adept with mechanical devices than with electronic ones -- they feel comfortable changing jets in a carb, but would balk at updating firmware on an EFI CPU, or creating new fueling maps.
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Old 11-14-2012, 03:46 PM   #71008
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Originally Posted by johnkol View Post
Oops, misunderstanding: I never said that I bought the EFI kit or installed it -- I am not interested in doing either at this point in time since I believe that the DR has other, bigger, and more fundamental problems.

I simply followed the installation thread from RCthirty, and it seemed very doable. I hadn't read unsuccessful installation reports from other people, so I was left with the impression that there we no major hurdles.

Maybe the problem with EFI kits is the fact that the vast majority of people are far more adept with mechanical devices than with electronic ones -- they feel comfortable changing jets in a carb, but would balk at updating firmware on an EFI CPU, or creating new fueling maps.
If you look at RCThirty's youtube page, within a couple minutes of the first video in that series, he had run into parts not fitting where they needed to go. I would consider buying it and trying to make it work if it was simply a "you need to buy these additional brackets and these length hoses" to get it to work. As it was, he was physically modifying the throttle body and having to force stuff around to make it all mount up. Now, he's got that all working, and that's friggen awesome, but when the list of stuff left to do to turn it into a kit includes "ship a product that fits in the bike people are buying it for," I think we're overstating the "readiness" of this product by saying it's 95% of the way there.
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:46 PM   #71009
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6k service. Oem carb with PC jet kit. 50 mpg and runs strong. Spark plug check. Anyone care to opine on the plug color as to lean mean or just right ?

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Old 11-14-2012, 04:55 PM   #71010
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Plug reading can be hard. You need to look down inside the plug at the porcelain where it meets the metal base. That is where you read the color for fuel mixture. And, I have seen some newer fuel additives make this almost impossible to do just from the additives giving the porcelain color. Oil burning can give false readings as well.

Also, you will only be reading the fuel mixture where you shut the engine off. If you shut it off at idle then that is all you will be reading. If you want to read mixture at wide open you need to do a wide open pull- chop throttle then shut engine off. Pull the plug before you start the bike back up.

And look at how many threads are showing heat (for heat range). Should be 3-5 threads showing heat. More threads with heat means you need a colder plug. Only 1-2 threads showing heat you need a hotter plug.

Here, this should make it all clear as mud! Good luck!

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