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Old 01-09-2013, 12:41 PM   #72676
Skidmarkart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opium89 View Post
So, the problem is basically on off-idle hesitation. It's not present while the bike is sitting and rev'd, but very obvious when riding it. Any acceleration off idle in any gear and there is a noticeable "bog" before it starts moving along.
That said, I would be happy trying both options, so here's the real question of the day. Does anyone know where these two items can be acquired on the cheap?
Any help/info would be greatly appreciated here.
I had the exact same problem, a few weeks ago and per Derek and other's here (EROS7 ??? and Procycle) it was a clogged pilot. Maybe your search -fu is better than mine and you can find it. I figured I order a carb rebuilt kit anyway, if I was going to take the carb off and tear it down. Sure a s**t they were exactly right. I even found the little chunk of dirt in the pilot. I Pine-Soled the carb, then put it back together using the bits that were already on it. My bike power-wheelies pretty easily in first and second now. The difference is amazing. Wasn't hard. Took about 30 mins to get everything off and disassembled, then maybe 2 hours the next day of cleaning and putting everything back.

Just get the BST-40 Bible off this forum and follow it to perfection. Do the Pine-Sol soak and clean (yeah it takes overnight, but it is dirt cheap and it works!). Then make sure your little seocndary filter is clean (mine was filthy on a bike with 800 miles!) and there no air obstructions (like the mouse-chewed snorkle on my bike to get int the way).

Oh yeah, it's easier with beer.

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Old 01-09-2013, 12:43 PM   #72677
opium89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentster View Post
I offered $2,500 cash today... he is stuck at $3,000. Here is the Craigs List link to see pic.
http://indianapolis.craigslist.org/mcy/3489277336.html

I would put a center stand, skid plate and windshield on it right away. How much of an improvement are the performance mods? Thanks!!!

For reference, I have two of them. One is a 2000 model I paid $2000 for and had 15,000 on it or so. Corbin seat and skid plate, a few spare sprockets were all that was included. The second is a 99 (the one I have been discussing lately) I bought for $600 with a grenaded case due to the solid starter gear failure. With new bottom end and a few odds and ends, I am probably in it now for about $1500, but this bike only has 6000 actual miles on it.
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Old 01-09-2013, 12:50 PM   #72678
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Originally Posted by Skidmarkart View Post
I had the exact same problem, a few weeks ago and per Derek and other's here (EROS7 ??? and Procycle) it was a clogged pilot. Maybe your search -fu is better than mine and you can find it. I figured I order a carb rebuilt kit anyway, if I was going to take the carb off and tear it down. Sure a s**t they were exactly right. I even found the little chunk of dirt in the pilot. I Pine-Soled the carb, then put it back together using the bits that were already on it. My bike power-wheelies pretty easily in first and second now. The difference is amazing. Wasn't hard. Too about 30 mins to get everything off and disassembled, then maybe 2 hours the nest day of cleaning and putting everything back.

Just get the BST-40 Bible off this forum and follow it to perfection. Do the Pine-Sol soak and clean (yeah it takes overnight, but it is dirt cheap and it works!). Then make sure your little seocndary filter is clean (mine was filthy on a bike with 800 miles!) and there no air obstructions (like the mouse-chewed snorkle on my bike to get int the way).

Oh yeah, it's easier with beer.
As mentioned, I have had this carb completely apart three times now. The last time (the time I finally got it running) I soaked it in chem-dip, blew out every orifice I could identify with carb cleaner, and replaced all the gaskets and o-rings. The most problematic "clog" I was able to identify was a brass widget that resides at the end of one of the plastic float tubes...it was completely closed and gummed up. Granted, the bike has been sitting with a blown engine for an undetermined amount of time. Besides the hesitation, it is running fairly strong now.

When you say "pilot", are you referring to the "pilot jet" or the "pilot screw" that some will call the air/fuel mixture screw? Also, when you say "pilot" are you referring to the jet itself, or the orifice it resides in?
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Old 01-09-2013, 01:03 PM   #72679
Skidmarkart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opium89 View Post

When you say "pilot", are you referring to the "pilot jet" or the "pilot screw" that some will call the air/fuel mixture screw? Also, when you say "pilot" are you referring to the jet itself, or the orifice it resides in?
Sorry - the jet. The little orifice had a chunk of something inside. Never figured out what it was, but I was able to blow it out after the Pine Sol.
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Old 01-09-2013, 01:12 PM   #72680
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chill View Post
I just have to put the new grips on (Renthal dual compound, half waffle), but I have a few n00b questions:
  1. Is there any special trick with applying the grip glue, or do you just smear it on and push the grips home?
  2. Is there any special trick with putting the Bark Busters back on the left grip, or do you just cut a hole in the end of the grip?
  3. Based on the pic below, does the 'waffle' on the right hand side point to the front of the bike, or the back, or somewhere else?

1. I don't use grip glue. I use oil. The grip is made of rubber and the oil means you can slide the grip on and then the rubber absorbs the oil and it's on there solid. Never had to lockwire a grip in my life.

2. Once the grips are on use a rubber mallet on the end of the bar and the bar will punch through the grip like a cookie cutter.

3. I would think the waffle bit lines up with your palm.
Have used hairspray for twenty years to install grips on mountain bikes, road bikes and now the DR's... The alcohol evaporates after you slide the grips on, let it sit for a bit to set up, never had one break loose, even in the wet.
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Old 01-09-2013, 01:16 PM   #72681
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidmarkart View Post
Sorry - the jet. The little orifice had a chunk of something inside. Never figured out what it was, but I was able to blow it out after the Pine Sol.
Did you noticed any of the other symptoms I've described? Idle that seems high? Strange, muffled "boom" when the bike is shut off? I am able to lean the bike out via the fuel mixture screw to the point of some pretty serious decel popping, and the idle increases pretty dramatically at the other end of the spectrum when I get to about 3 1/2 turns out on the screw.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:52 PM   #72682
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BergDonk View Post
One way is to monitor the extension of the tensioner plunger. But its sort of dependant on knowing where it is with a new chain, and how far in it is that represents a problem. I don't know eitehr for the DR. I had mine out recently to service the starter and estimated it to be about half way on the plunger at 57,000 kms. No chain rattles, so OK for the moment. Not much help I'm afraid.
Thanks, do you happen to know approximately how much the plunger was extended at those 57.000kms? (I mean distance from the gasket surface to the tip of the plunger). Also I do not actually know how the automatic tensioner works, I presume it retains it's length when you remove it from the cylinder? Or does it extend fully when removed?


Another thing that concerns me is the piston. It seems to be in a relatively good shape, apart from the piston pin bores - they look sort of "eroded" although you can't feel any surface irregularities when driving a fingernail inside:



The piston pin I will replace for sure, but I don't know if the way the bores are "eroded" on the piston, justify replacing the piston as well. I don't have the instruments required to measure the ID of the piston bores. This is the first time I am opening an engine. It just seems to me as if aluminum from the piston was "transfered" to the piston pin:
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Old 01-09-2013, 03:06 PM   #72683
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opium89 View Post
I am *fairly* certain it is all stock, but I am beginning to wonder if perhaps the PO may have changed out either the main or pilot jet (which could possibly be the actual source of the problem). I didn't actually check them for sizing when I had the carb apart. The reason I say this is because *someone* has had this carb apart, as witnessed by the stripped out float bowl screws I replaced. Do you know if the jets are stamped with their respective sizes?

There'a also a couple other things to note. The idle on this bike seems a little high to me. This is with the idle adjustment backed all the way down. The second thing of note is there is a little bit of a "backfire" immediately after the bike is shut off. This has been consistent since I've gotten it running. I use the term "backfire" loosely, as it's more like a muffled "boom" sound, as opposed to the "pop pop pop" I get when the bike is running noticeably lean when cranking the air/fuel screw down. The sweet spot for the air/fuel mixture screw seems to be between about 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 open. Get past 3 turns or so, and the idle speed starts to creep upwards.

I will see about taking it back apart this evening and see if I can determine the sizes of both the main and pilot jet. I know for certain the needle is a stock part, as it is marked as such. Do you use the same plastic spacer from the stock needle with the KTM needle?
The jets normally have a number on them. Most of the time its correct, but sometimes its a furphy for some reason.

I have aset of jet drills and have learnt ove rthe years to gauge every jet to confirm the numbering. Every now and then its wrong. Either because someone drilled it, or it was wrongly stamped.

I also check my jet drills with a micrometer because the packaging isn't always right either, or they get mixed up, or.....

I have among others, a set of these:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/30Pce-Met...item3f206f348c
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Old 01-09-2013, 03:10 PM   #72684
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Comments on available light(er) weight exhaust with lifetime packing?

I don't want a re-pack exhaust, what's available?
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Old 01-09-2013, 03:13 PM   #72685
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deathu View Post
Thanks, do you happen to know approximately how much the plunger was extended at those 57.000kms? (I mean distance from the gasket surface to the tip of the plunger). Also I do not actually know how the automatic tensioner works, I presume it retains it's length when you remove it from the cylinder? Or does it extend fully when removed?


Another thing that concerns me is the piston. It seems to be in a relatively good shape, apart from the piston pin bores - they look sort of "eroded" although you can't feel any surface irregularities when driving a fingernail inside:
When you remove the tensioner, if you do it with 3 hands or more, hold a screw driver into the adjustment screw and don't allow it to turn as it comes out. See how far out it is from the body. Now release the screw and you'll see full extension, now wind the screw in and just a bit more to lock it in and you'll see it fully compressed. Don't worry if it slips when pulling it out the first time, just push it in and try again until you get it. In fact you really need to remove it first to 'crack' the gasket and then do it again stoppin git extending as you remove it to check it.

I'd be putting a fresh piston in. If $s are desperate, it might tidy up, but...............

Do we have a needle roller little end or a plain bush? The little end looks like its picked up on the gudgeon too, so that needs to be understood as well.
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Old 01-09-2013, 03:20 PM   #72686
Mongle
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Deathu,

What you are seeing in the pin bore is material moving around. Pin clearance was probably on the tight side in those areas and the alumn. was trying to stick to the pin. Happens usually when the piston gets real HOT (working the engine hard) and then gets cooled quickly (water crossing) and the alumn. piston shrinks faster than the steel pin. Also known as pin stick.




Get a new piston pin. Take pin and piston to a local machine shop. They should have mandrels that they can hone the piston pin bore to give it a nice finish. I would run in the .0005-.0007" range of clearance on an air cooled engine.



I’m not sure what Suzuki recommends- I will try to find it.

Edit: Sorry, forgot that DR has a floating pin in the rod. Suzuki reccomends .0003" clearance pin to piston and .0006" clearance pin to connecting rod. That is tighter then what most water cooled engines run. If it was mine I would set up the piston to pin at .0005-.0007" and pin to rod at .0007-.0009". You wont have any problems there. High performance engines run double that amount with no ill effects.

Mongle screwed with this post 01-09-2013 at 03:28 PM
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Old 01-09-2013, 03:21 PM   #72687
deathu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BergDonk View Post
Do we have a needle roller little end or a plain bush? The little end looks like its picked up on the gudgeon too, so that needs to be understood as well.
It's a plain bush on the little end. From the schematics I understand it's a needle bearing only on the big end, but at this point I do not plan to crack the crankcase halves apart.

Also that photo highlights the worst looking part of the piston. Actually it looks better, and the measurements look good - only the bore thingie worries me.



LE. Mongle, thanks for the explanation - I really appreciate it.
Well this is kind of sad, we aren't getting any new DRs here in Europe since 2003, due to ridiculous pollution regulations. Even when the model was being sold as new, it was not too popular here, and it seems to me the majority are pretty trashed up. Hard to find a good one around these places... anyways the model is too nice (at least i like it a LOT) and I'll rebuild it as good as I can. The engine was running ok'ish, I only wanted to fix oil burning and oil leak.
Why am I saying this... well I was reading the discussions regarding the used price it it sold at in US. It makes me very sad, I wish I had the chance to buy a DR that's not more than a few years old and not that trashed up. It's not about the money, but about the unavailability of the bike here.

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Old 01-09-2013, 04:57 PM   #72688
Skidmarkart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opium89 View Post
Did you noticed any of the other symptoms I've described? Idle that seems high? Strange, muffled "boom" when the bike is shut off? I am able to lean the bike out via the fuel mixture screw to the point of some pretty serious decel popping, and the idle increases pretty dramatically at the other end of the spectrum when I get to about 3 1/2 turns out on the screw.
Yep. All those were part of my symptoms. I didn't mess too much with the fuel screw setting. Just a basic slow or fast idle. Getting that chunk of crap out of the pilot jet was the big thing, I am fairly certain. But looking back at your post, everything on my bike is stock (well, except my bars and shifter - see post about spilling my dumb-ass self this AM) so it may not be the same thing, but it sure sounds the same. Odd bog-down, off-idle. Unhappy for the first quarter turn or so of the throttle, but fine to near-perfect afterwards. Los of popping on deceleration.

One thing that sold the pilot-jet diagnosis, was that it ran perfectly with the choke engaged (or whatever the alternative on the DR carb is). Does yours behave in a totally normal fashion when you have the cold start thing engaged? If so, I'd look at that pilot jet.
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:59 PM   #72689
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opium89 View Post
So, the problem is basically on off-idle hesitation. It's not present while the bike is sitting and rev'd, but very obvious when riding it. Any acceleration off idle in any gear and there is a noticeable "bog" before it starts moving along.
Quote:
What I can't determine however is if the pilot jet, or perhaps the needle are suspect.
Put some tape on the throttle housing and the edge of the grip. Mark zero throttle with a sharpie. This is best done with the engine idling, so you can tell when the slack in the cable has just been taken up. Turn off the engine and mark wide open. Now take a tape measure (metric works best in my opinion) and measure the length of the arc. Put a mark at the mid point. Duplicate this procedure to mark the mid-point between here and zero throttle opening to get 1/4 open. Repeat for 1/8 and 1/16 openings.With the help of the marks, determine precisely during what throttle opening(s) it misbehaves. Don't have an accident trying to look at the marks while riding. If you do, I'm not responsible!

Correspondences on CV carbs:

Low rpm all throttle positions: float height, needle base diameter, emulsion tube outlet size
WOT operation overall: main jet
WOT operation between HP peak and red line: main air corrector
WOT operation below red line: jet needle shape
1/4 throttle opening: jet needle clip position
1/8 throttle opening: pilot jet size
1/16 throttle opening: pilot jet size
idle: mixture screw adjustment

Note that tuning should always be done from the top down, although the idle mixture screw should be adjusted at each change.
Quote:
Does anyone know where these two items can be acquired on the cheap? I've tried calling Sudco on the pilot jet, but they were far less than useful on the phone and are completely unable to determine which pilot get I need. Procycle of course sells the needle in a kit, but as you probably know, it's a little pricey, and I only really want/need the needle and not the rest of the parts included.
See http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=528038.

Regards,

Derek
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Old 01-09-2013, 05:05 PM   #72690
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Originally Posted by Feelers View Post
I would get this needle: #584310346-G5. I think that is the right part number for the KTM LC4.... Don't forget the circlip.
I would recommend installing an adjustable non-USA OEM needle, part number 13383-32E00.
Quote:
I would keep the stock size pilot jet, though. Putting in a new one would eliminate that though as a problem source.
I agree that a fresh pilot jet should be installed to start.

Regards,

Derek
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