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Old 02-05-2013, 09:15 AM   #73471
adventurebound9517
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Originally Posted by procycle View Post
Thanks for sharing this.
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Old 02-05-2013, 11:33 AM   #73472
TIGERRIDER007
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Originally Posted by Rob.G View Post
Agreed. I learned about that back when I was snowmobiling. Same thing when hitting a super-steep hill.. you're up over the bars, but you have to manage your position so you keep enough weight on the track. You don't actually want the skis on the ground, though... you generally want them a few inches in the air, and just like riding in sand, you steer with your feet/body.

Some of the newer sleds come with a telescoping handlebar setup, so you can change it on the fly... down low for sitting down on the trail (or climbing real high), or up for general standing/riding.

Rob
Okay, good information. So, you don't want the bars too high, but high enough to stand on the pegs comfortably? The point being, you give up control for comfort as the bars get higher...correct?
Thanks for the input....never been snow-mobiling, but I bet it's a blast!
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Old 02-05-2013, 11:38 AM   #73473
Rob.G
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Originally Posted by TIGERRIDER007 View Post
Okay, good information. So, you don't want the bars too high, but high enough to stand on the pegs comfortably? The point being, you give up control for comfort as the bars get higher...correct?
Thanks for the input....never been snow-mobiling, but I bet it's a blast!
I think part of what he was saying is that you don't want the bars too far back as much as anything. I went riding yesterday afternoon and got to thinking about it. I can stand up and lean forward just fine, but I need to pivot my bars forward about an inch to make it ideal, so I may just try doing that today.

Snowmobiling is an absolute blast. Highly recommended if you get the chance.. mountain snowmobiling that is, not that silly flat-lander crap. :)

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Old 02-05-2013, 01:53 PM   #73474
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Originally Posted by Rob.G View Post
I think part of what he was saying is that you don't want the bars too far back as much as anything. I went riding yesterday afternoon and got to thinking about it. I can stand up and lean forward just fine, but I need to pivot my bars forward about an inch to make it ideal, so I may just try doing that today.

Snowmobiling is an absolute blast. Highly recommended if you get the chance.. mountain snowmobiling that is, not that silly flat-lander crap. :)

Rob
Yes, remember that due to the head angle of your moto, if you merely get higher rise bars, you are most likely also bringing the grips toward your body, effectively make the cockpit smaller front-to-back. This could make the cockpit and ergos actually worse rather than better, if you are a tall dude.

Any rise in bar height should generally be accompanied by forward risers, or at least a decrease in handlebar pull-back, even more so if you are a taller rider or trying to ride offroad (standing up) on a bike with more old school ergos (like the DR). Putting the grips in your lap will make cornering tougher, as mentioned before.

I just did the ProTaper oversize mounts on my DR, and put them in the forward offset position. Not sure if it enough forward for me. The Rox risers are good for fine-tuning height and reach; i have those on my XR.
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:00 PM   #73475
Rob.G
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I just spent a half hour replacing the stupid factory "toolbox" tube with one of those nicer, longer, more-secure "skinny tool tubes." Went on pretty easily. I found two lengths of metal in my junk drawers that were meant to be used with u-bolts. Stuck 'em in the vice and bent one 90-deg for the rear, and bent the other one at 45-deg for the front, to line up with the hole in the frame where the rear blinker used to go (since mine were relocated to the OEM rack to work with the Givi luggage racks), then secured everything with nylocks and bolts.

Anyway, now to decide what to put in it. On my KLX250S, I use two of the regular-sized tool tubes and one of them holds a zipper pouch with tools in it. No such luck fitting even the empty zipper pouch in this one. Hmmm.

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Old 02-05-2013, 03:11 PM   #73476
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Originally Posted by adventurebound9517 View Post
Thanks for sharing this.

Is the motoman method really the preferred? I have a friend who is a mechanic that said a lot of problems can steam from running a brand new engine hard in the beginning of its life. Then again, he might just be saying it for the business. Does anybody have an engine with a ton of miles\Kms on it that has used the Motoman method? My main concern is oil leaking past the rings.
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Old 02-05-2013, 03:19 PM   #73477
Rob.G
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Originally Posted by planemanx15 View Post
Is the motoman method really the preferred? I have a friend who is a mechanic that said a lot of problems can steam from running a brand new engine hard in the beginning of its life. Then again, he might just be saying it for the business. Does anybody have an engine with a ton of miles\Kms on it that has used the Motoman method? My main concern is oil leaking past the rings.
I'm not 100% sold on ride it like you stole it method, but I AM a fan of ensuring that you wear the motor in at all RPM ranges. I don't like babying it for the first, say, 500 or 1000 miles.

I've done the near-MotoTune method on two bikes so far -- a 2010 Kawi Z1000 and a 2010 Kawi KLX250S. Basically, I start it up, ride it gently until warm, and then I start spinning it up to higher RPMs, but not at WOT. I'll use half to 3/4 throttle and do it in 2nd and 3rd gear. Then I'll allow the engine to slow down in that gear, back down to around 3000 RPM or so, before repeating the process. As the miles accumulate, I'll use more and more throttle.

So in both cases, the bikes broke in fine. No oil usage, decent fuel economy, etc. The biggest difference I might make with the DR650 is that since it's air-cooled, I'd be more diligent about warm-up before romping on it. I'll have to figure that out since I'll do the 790 kit next winter, so I'll have a new motor to break in after that.

Rob
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Old 02-05-2013, 03:49 PM   #73478
Adv Grifter
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Originally Posted by planemanx15 View Post
Is the motoman method really the preferred? I have a friend who is a mechanic that said a lot of problems can steam from running a brand new engine hard in the beginning of its life. Then again, he might just be saying it for the business. Does anybody have an engine with a ton of miles\Kms on it that has used the Motoman method? My main concern is oil leaking past the rings.
Opinions on this vary widely. I do not run my bikes very hard for the first 500 miles or so. In the first 200 miles, IMO, heat cycles are the most important thing to do. Ride for 15 minutes. Let her cool. Repeat Repeat Repeat. Varying RPM and load is also important. I don't lug and I don't over rev. After 500 miles, IMO, you can start to ring her out. Snapping throttle shut on the over run is also a good break in routine.

After a half dozen good heat cycles and some running up and down the rev range you are pretty much there. I am old school and don't use full synthetic oil until about 3000 miles. Have fun on the new bike.
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Old 02-05-2013, 04:06 PM   #73479
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Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
Opinions on this vary widely. I do not run my bikes very hard for the first 500 miles or so. In the first 200 miles, IMO, heat cycles are the most important thing to do. Ride for 15 minutes. Let her cool. Repeat Repeat Repeat. Varying RPM and load is also important. I don't lug and I don't over rev. After 500 miles, IMO, you can start to ring her out. Snapping throttle shut on the over run is also a good break in routine.

After a half dozen good heat cycles and some running up and down the rev range you are pretty much there. I am old school and don't use full synthetic oil until about 3000 miles. Have fun on the new bike.
I'm just curious. What benefit does short choppy heat cycles confer that longer heat cycles would not? Also, what changes in the engine as the number of heat cycles goes up?
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Old 02-05-2013, 04:09 PM   #73480
Mongle
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Originally Posted by planemanx15 View Post
Is the motoman method really the preferred? I have a friend who is a mechanic that said a lot of problems can steam from running a brand new engine hard in the beginning of its life. Then again, he might just be saying it for the business. Does anybody have an engine with a ton of miles\Kms on it that has used the Motoman method? My main concern is oil leaking past the rings.
I’m going to say Yes and No. We go through a “break in” process on the dyno but it boils down to a couple of warm ups checking things, 1 or 2 pulls at 50-60% power to make sure things like cams and valve clearances are stable then we give it 100% power pulls thereafter. I have never had an engine come back for ring problems.

What I don’t agree with- “The honed crosshatch pattern in the cylinder bore acts like a file to allow the rings to wear. The rings quickly wear down the "peaks" of this roughness, regardless of how hard the engine is run.”

This is the yes and no part. He is making a broad statement that does not apply to all engines. Manly concerning ring and cylinder metallurgy. Couple of examples: Dirt track engines often run a chrome top ring for durability. There is little to no break in on the ring. It doesn’t wear. Then engines like many motorcycles have Nikasil coatings on the cylinders which are very hard and will have little break in.

The main design of the cross hatch isn’t to “act like a file”. It is designed to leave small valleys in which oil is allowed to remain on the cylinder. This is why when a carb overflows or injector sticks open it ruins your rings-it washes the oil off the cylinder walls. The cross hatch is also a by product of creating a smooth and straight cylinder. If you allowed the hone to stay in one place and just hone to size you would not be able to keep the cylinder straight and would have high and low lines running the circumference of the cylinder. Any type of cylinder that is honed will have cross hatch patterns; it is not only for engines.

I do agree with him that honing techniques have changed greatly in the past 10-20 years. Finer honing and more durable rings are now the norm. The reason for this though is less piston/ring drag for better fuel economy. Rings today have very little tension and are thinner. I also agree that “easy” break in isn’t as critical as it once was due to things like roller camshafts, better bearing clearances, better metals and tighter tolerances on today’s engines. With that I will say if you are breaking in a motor 20 years or more older with flat tappets it is imperative you follow proper cam break in or you will have a mess on your hands!
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Old 02-05-2013, 04:14 PM   #73481
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What I forgot: Break in isn't only about ring seal. Things like gears, timing chains, bearings and tappets all have a break in period. There are machining imperfections in many things and allowing to metal parts to "find their home" can be in important process. Many are done by the first time you warm the engine up; some may take longer. I firmly believe in a couple of engine warm ups to allow the metals to swell to their running clearances before any hard pulls.


Or....ride it like you stole it.
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Old 02-05-2013, 09:00 PM   #73482
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another piece of the puzzle. a bit shorter this time due to the internet in indonesia being a little slow. this took 10hrs to upload.

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Old 02-05-2013, 10:37 PM   #73483
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Originally Posted by Feelers View Post
I'm just curious. What benefit does short choppy heat cycles confer that longer heat cycles would not? Also, what changes in the engine as the number of heat cycles goes up?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongle View Post
What I forgot: Break in isn't only about ring seal. Things like gears, timing chains, bearings and tappets all have a break in period. There are machining imperfections in many things and allowing to metal parts to "find their home" can be in important process. Many are done by the first time you warm the engine up; some may take longer. I firmly believe in a couple of engine warm ups to allow the metals to swell to their running clearances before any hard pulls.


Or....ride it like you stole it.
Plus ONE ... another old school guy! YEA!



I learned everything (I think I know ) about heat cycles regarding break in from reading Kevin Cameron for the last 30 years ... and from breaking in my newly rebuilt 2 stroke race bikes for 10 years. I never had an engine failure on any race bike in this time ... including running through Baja flat out in 90F heat for hours and hours.

The theory is you don't want to get a BRAND NEW engine TOO HOT on its first run. Things are tight. First start up it heats up quickly ... metal expands ... and it expands at different rates (steel vs. Alu vs. brass) As it expands contact pressure with mating surfaces increases. Expansion and contraction of metal helps the mating surfaces wear in to each other. If too hot too soon you can get uneven expansion and develop Hot Spots. Not good. You don't want hot spots.

If the engine gets TOO HOT when its brand new ... tolerances can become too tight with too much pressure and heat ... this can do damage to cylinder, rings, piston, leading to shortened life of the motor. Once several heat cycles are completed the mating surfaces are polished up pretty good and can tolerate more heat as their is less rubbing friction. As the motor loosens up it can tolerate more pressure from heat expansion.

Also there is less pressure as rough spots and uneven areas are polished down from contact, smoothed out and flushed with cooling oil.

I mostly only ever did 2 strokes. A brand new two stroke motor can be broken in ... in just 30 minutes. Ready to race. Not so a four stroke ... as rings need to bed in and seat. Overheating a brand new ... and very tight new piston ring is not a good idea. (according to Kevin Cameron of course)

As I said earlier ... everyone is their own expert on break in. I trust Kevin Cameron's ideas. It's true, two strokes are different than 4 strokes. But the basics tend to cross over, IMHO.
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Old 02-05-2013, 11:02 PM   #73484
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Well that makes a lot of sense.

Other thing I was always told was don't labour the engine. But you really should never do that anyways.

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Old 02-06-2013, 01:47 AM   #73485
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Well first 40km down, no problems so far I think. No oil pissing, no "omgwtf?!" noises. Only 9960 more to go! XD

Here's a pic for all of ya.


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