ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Thumpers
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-05-2013, 02:19 PM   #73486
Rob.G
Mostly Harmless
 
Rob.G's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: Fulltiming in an RV!
Oddometer: 2,117
Quote:
Originally Posted by planemanx15 View Post
Is the motoman method really the preferred? I have a friend who is a mechanic that said a lot of problems can steam from running a brand new engine hard in the beginning of its life. Then again, he might just be saying it for the business. Does anybody have an engine with a ton of miles\Kms on it that has used the Motoman method? My main concern is oil leaking past the rings.
I'm not 100% sold on ride it like you stole it method, but I AM a fan of ensuring that you wear the motor in at all RPM ranges. I don't like babying it for the first, say, 500 or 1000 miles.

I've done the near-MotoTune method on two bikes so far -- a 2010 Kawi Z1000 and a 2010 Kawi KLX250S. Basically, I start it up, ride it gently until warm, and then I start spinning it up to higher RPMs, but not at WOT. I'll use half to 3/4 throttle and do it in 2nd and 3rd gear. Then I'll allow the engine to slow down in that gear, back down to around 3000 RPM or so, before repeating the process. As the miles accumulate, I'll use more and more throttle.

So in both cases, the bikes broke in fine. No oil usage, decent fuel economy, etc. The biggest difference I might make with the DR650 is that since it's air-cooled, I'd be more diligent about warm-up before romping on it. I'll have to figure that out since I'll do the 790 kit next winter, so I'll have a new motor to break in after that.

Rob
__________________
'12 Suzuki V-Strom DL650
'96 Suzuki DR650
'10 Kawasaki KLX351S #320
Rob.G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2013, 02:49 PM   #73487
Adv Grifter
on the road o'dreams
 
Adv Grifter's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: Passing ADV Stalkers in California
Oddometer: 6,128
Quote:
Originally Posted by planemanx15 View Post
Is the motoman method really the preferred? I have a friend who is a mechanic that said a lot of problems can steam from running a brand new engine hard in the beginning of its life. Then again, he might just be saying it for the business. Does anybody have an engine with a ton of miles\Kms on it that has used the Motoman method? My main concern is oil leaking past the rings.
Opinions on this vary widely. I do not run my bikes very hard for the first 500 miles or so. In the first 200 miles, IMO, heat cycles are the most important thing to do. Ride for 15 minutes. Let her cool. Repeat Repeat Repeat. Varying RPM and load is also important. I don't lug and I don't over rev. After 500 miles, IMO, you can start to ring her out. Snapping throttle shut on the over run is also a good break in routine.

After a half dozen good heat cycles and some running up and down the rev range you are pretty much there. I am old school and don't use full synthetic oil until about 3000 miles. Have fun on the new bike.
Adv Grifter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2013, 03:06 PM   #73488
Feelers
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Aug 2010
Location: Northeast Ohio
Oddometer: 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
Opinions on this vary widely. I do not run my bikes very hard for the first 500 miles or so. In the first 200 miles, IMO, heat cycles are the most important thing to do. Ride for 15 minutes. Let her cool. Repeat Repeat Repeat. Varying RPM and load is also important. I don't lug and I don't over rev. After 500 miles, IMO, you can start to ring her out. Snapping throttle shut on the over run is also a good break in routine.

After a half dozen good heat cycles and some running up and down the rev range you are pretty much there. I am old school and don't use full synthetic oil until about 3000 miles. Have fun on the new bike.
I'm just curious. What benefit does short choppy heat cycles confer that longer heat cycles would not? Also, what changes in the engine as the number of heat cycles goes up?
Feelers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2013, 03:09 PM   #73489
Mongle
Knuckle dragger
 
Mongle's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2009
Location: North Carolina Y'all
Oddometer: 2,418
Quote:
Originally Posted by planemanx15 View Post
Is the motoman method really the preferred? I have a friend who is a mechanic that said a lot of problems can steam from running a brand new engine hard in the beginning of its life. Then again, he might just be saying it for the business. Does anybody have an engine with a ton of miles\Kms on it that has used the Motoman method? My main concern is oil leaking past the rings.
I’m going to say Yes and No. We go through a “break in” process on the dyno but it boils down to a couple of warm ups checking things, 1 or 2 pulls at 50-60% power to make sure things like cams and valve clearances are stable then we give it 100% power pulls thereafter. I have never had an engine come back for ring problems.

What I don’t agree with- “The honed crosshatch pattern in the cylinder bore acts like a file to allow the rings to wear. The rings quickly wear down the "peaks" of this roughness, regardless of how hard the engine is run.”

This is the yes and no part. He is making a broad statement that does not apply to all engines. Manly concerning ring and cylinder metallurgy. Couple of examples: Dirt track engines often run a chrome top ring for durability. There is little to no break in on the ring. It doesn’t wear. Then engines like many motorcycles have Nikasil coatings on the cylinders which are very hard and will have little break in.

The main design of the cross hatch isn’t to “act like a file”. It is designed to leave small valleys in which oil is allowed to remain on the cylinder. This is why when a carb overflows or injector sticks open it ruins your rings-it washes the oil off the cylinder walls. The cross hatch is also a by product of creating a smooth and straight cylinder. If you allowed the hone to stay in one place and just hone to size you would not be able to keep the cylinder straight and would have high and low lines running the circumference of the cylinder. Any type of cylinder that is honed will have cross hatch patterns; it is not only for engines.

I do agree with him that honing techniques have changed greatly in the past 10-20 years. Finer honing and more durable rings are now the norm. The reason for this though is less piston/ring drag for better fuel economy. Rings today have very little tension and are thinner. I also agree that “easy” break in isn’t as critical as it once was due to things like roller camshafts, better bearing clearances, better metals and tighter tolerances on today’s engines. With that I will say if you are breaking in a motor 20 years or more older with flat tappets it is imperative you follow proper cam break in or you will have a mess on your hands!
Mongle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2013, 03:14 PM   #73490
Mongle
Knuckle dragger
 
Mongle's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2009
Location: North Carolina Y'all
Oddometer: 2,418
What I forgot: Break in isn't only about ring seal. Things like gears, timing chains, bearings and tappets all have a break in period. There are machining imperfections in many things and allowing to metal parts to "find their home" can be in important process. Many are done by the first time you warm the engine up; some may take longer. I firmly believe in a couple of engine warm ups to allow the metals to swell to their running clearances before any hard pulls.


Or....ride it like you stole it.
Mongle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2013, 08:00 PM   #73491
blackcap
Studly Adventurer
 
blackcap's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2008
Location: Wollongong aka stink-town, Australia
Oddometer: 537
another piece of the puzzle. a bit shorter this time due to the internet in indonesia being a little slow. this took 10hrs to upload.

__________________
"One must die sometime and to die with ones boots on is very noble" - Carl Stearns Clancy, first RTW motorcycle, 1912-13

Australia to Iceland on a DR650 http://oztoice.wordpress.com
and facebook https://www.facebook.com/oztoice
blackcap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2013, 09:37 PM   #73492
Adv Grifter
on the road o'dreams
 
Adv Grifter's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: Passing ADV Stalkers in California
Oddometer: 6,128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feelers View Post
I'm just curious. What benefit does short choppy heat cycles confer that longer heat cycles would not? Also, what changes in the engine as the number of heat cycles goes up?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongle View Post
What I forgot: Break in isn't only about ring seal. Things like gears, timing chains, bearings and tappets all have a break in period. There are machining imperfections in many things and allowing to metal parts to "find their home" can be in important process. Many are done by the first time you warm the engine up; some may take longer. I firmly believe in a couple of engine warm ups to allow the metals to swell to their running clearances before any hard pulls.


Or....ride it like you stole it.
Plus ONE ... another old school guy! YEA!



I learned everything (I think I know ) about heat cycles regarding break in from reading Kevin Cameron for the last 30 years ... and from breaking in my newly rebuilt 2 stroke race bikes for 10 years. I never had an engine failure on any race bike in this time ... including running through Baja flat out in 90F heat for hours and hours.

The theory is you don't want to get a BRAND NEW engine TOO HOT on its first run. Things are tight. First start up it heats up quickly ... metal expands ... and it expands at different rates (steel vs. Alu vs. brass) As it expands contact pressure with mating surfaces increases. Expansion and contraction of metal helps the mating surfaces wear in to each other. If too hot too soon you can get uneven expansion and develop Hot Spots. Not good. You don't want hot spots.

If the engine gets TOO HOT when its brand new ... tolerances can become too tight with too much pressure and heat ... this can do damage to cylinder, rings, piston, leading to shortened life of the motor. Once several heat cycles are completed the mating surfaces are polished up pretty good and can tolerate more heat as their is less rubbing friction. As the motor loosens up it can tolerate more pressure from heat expansion.

Also there is less pressure as rough spots and uneven areas are polished down from contact, smoothed out and flushed with cooling oil.

I mostly only ever did 2 strokes. A brand new two stroke motor can be broken in ... in just 30 minutes. Ready to race. Not so a four stroke ... as rings need to bed in and seat. Overheating a brand new ... and very tight new piston ring is not a good idea. (according to Kevin Cameron of course)

As I said earlier ... everyone is their own expert on break in. I trust Kevin Cameron's ideas. It's true, two strokes are different than 4 strokes. But the basics tend to cross over, IMHO.
Adv Grifter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2013, 10:02 PM   #73493
falcore
Adventurer
 
Joined: Apr 2010
Location: perth, western australia
Oddometer: 10
Well that makes a lot of sense.

Other thing I was always told was don't labour the engine. But you really should never do that anyways.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2
__________________
here for a good time
falcore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2013, 12:47 AM   #73494
Spirtwolf15x
n00b
 
Spirtwolf15x's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Oddometer: 8
Well first 40km down, no problems so far I think. No oil pissing, no "omgwtf?!" noises. Only 9960 more to go! XD

Here's a pic for all of ya.


Spirtwolf15x screwed with this post 02-06-2013 at 01:06 AM
Spirtwolf15x is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2013, 07:14 AM   #73495
gofast1320
Studly Adventurer
 
gofast1320's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2010
Location: Middle Tennessee
Oddometer: 672
Quote:
Originally Posted by motolab View Post
What is the throttle position when the problem occurs?Was the bike ever stored for any length of time?The fuel screw should be used to adjust the idle mixture. It is not applicable to other openings.

Regards,

Derek
Thanks Motolab and Adv Grifter the answers ARE- Throttle position, not sure was on level highway and I'm a fat boy and I had it twisted enough to run 55-60. Bike stored- Yes, PO broke some toes and bike sat for several months. 10-4 on idle mixture only.
Run Sea Foam through it? not yet, I did drain tank and fill with fresh fuel with StaBil. Petcock screen is clean. Airbox is stock and left side cover is on the bike.
First time I filled it with fresh fuel, I left petcock on prime and the carb float or needle let fuel through and filled up air box with fuel along with some running into crankcase. Changed oil and filter and got all that taken care of and if carb float or needle valve were malfunctioning due to dirt or funk or whatever that has been reduced or cleaned out by fuel flow from riding and filling tank and riding some more. No further problems with fuel leaking. It seems to be running better every time I ride it. I did lose one of the screws on the airbox lid and it is held on with only the remaining 3 or 4 screws. I never thought about that till just now. I'll put the replacement screw in the air box side plate and report back. Thanks guys
gofast1320 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2013, 07:33 AM   #73496
eakins
Butler Maps
 
eakins's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2002
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Oddometer: 17,689
wow! and it thought riding my motorcycle all over Mexico was crazy. that takes it up a few notches.


Quote:
Originally Posted by blackcap View Post
another piece of the puzzle. a bit shorter this time due to the internet in indonesia being a little slow. this took 10hrs to upload.

__________________
Butler Maps - motorcycle maps for riders by riders -
Alaska
AZ map COBDR AZBDR IDBDR South East map
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=598717
Butler Maps website:
http://www.butlermaps.com
eakins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2013, 07:36 AM   #73497
eakins
Butler Maps
 
eakins's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2002
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Oddometer: 17,689
nice. now get a skid plate and start rocking that bike in the dirt.
maybe add a better seat http://www.seatconcepts.com/products...358&id=7268100 so yer ass is happy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spirtwolf15x View Post
Well first 40km down, no problems so far I think. No oil pissing, no "omgwtf?!" noises. Only 9960 more to go! XD

Here's a pic for all of ya.

__________________
Butler Maps - motorcycle maps for riders by riders -
Alaska
AZ map COBDR AZBDR IDBDR South East map
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=598717
Butler Maps website:
http://www.butlermaps.com
eakins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2013, 08:02 AM   #73498
Mambo Dave
Backyard Adventurer
 
Mambo Dave's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2011
Location: 11 ft. AMSL
Oddometer: 4,985
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackcap View Post
another piece of the puzzle. a bit shorter this time due to the internet in indonesia being a little slow. this took 10hrs to upload.

Good stuff. Did you alter your bike much, suspension wise, to handle the constant punishment?

What bars are those? they seem to have a higher rise than stock.
__________________
"After reading through this thread I've come to the conclusion
that more people cruise the internet looking for reasons why
X bike won't work in Y scenario rather than actually riding
their motorcycles
." --
RyanR
Mambo Dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2013, 08:16 AM   #73499
Spirtwolf15x
n00b
 
Spirtwolf15x's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Oddometer: 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by eakins View Post
nice. now get a skid plate and start rocking that bike in the dirt.
maybe add a better seat http://www.seatconcepts.com/products...358&id=7268100 so yer ass is happy.
I actually like the stock seat, nice and firm, they way a seat should be. Skid plate, barkbusters, proper grip shields and other add-ons will come in 960km after the first service.
Spirtwolf15x is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2013, 10:56 AM   #73500
NordieBoy
Armature speller
 
NordieBoy's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: Kiwiland
Oddometer: 7,120
Quote:
Originally Posted by planemanx15 View Post
Is the motoman method really the preferred? I have a friend who is a mechanic that said a lot of problems can steam from running a brand new engine hard in the beginning of its life. Then again, he might just be saying it for the business. Does anybody have an engine with a ton of miles\Kms on it that has used the Motoman method? My main concern is oil leaking past the rings.
The whole point of the MotoMan method is to bed the rings in properly.

We rebuilt my '79 XR250 and I used a fun race day to run it in. It was run for 10 seconds before riding it on the day. Not running in hard, just taking it easy, lots of smooth, varied throttle and engine braking. Every lap you could feel it getting stronger. Oil changed that evening. 6 years later we replaced the rings. Got accused many times of running a 305 kit.
Maybe 20 3hr x-countries, 3 6hrs and countless classic MX races.
__________________
DR650 Wiki
NordieBoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 11:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014