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Old 06-20-2013, 10:08 PM   #77776
GSF1200S
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Quote:
Originally Posted by procycle View Post
That is normal behavior. The OEM stators in most street going motorcycles are optimized for maximum output at or just above idle speed. The reason is the output curve drops slowly above the peak output rpm but drops off steeply below the peak rpm. The factories want it to be able to charge the battery in slow city traffic.
So what's the difference with the aftermarket one you guys sell? If it puts out more wattage than stock and wattage is a calculation of amperage vs voltage, with more volts at higher rpms is it also moving more amperage? I would assume so since the amount of current is what matters so long as its supplied in the right voltage form. And how does rewiring the stator affect output for the better?
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Old 06-20-2013, 10:15 PM   #77777
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Not "drugs" mate,

"DR-ugs"

Or maybe "DR-ughs" since our credit cards make us say UGH! Then we get the monthly statement .
I got slapped with sticker shock today. Buying toys is a lot more fun than paying for them.

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Old 06-20-2013, 10:26 PM   #77778
Adv Grifter
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Originally Posted by GSF1200S View Post
As someone who is doing a long trip on the Dr, I can say its a compromise bike. There are times I wish I had my Bandit for the power, times I wish I had an Electra glide for the seat, times I wish I had a KTM 450 for nasty offroad, etc. But, I've been using it for everything. I will say if you are going to climb any loose terrain or rocky terrain, you need a knobby rear, because once that weight loses momentum, you're turning around.
With good technique and proper tire pressures I find the DR climbs OK with 50/50 tires. But NOT in mud. Momentum is key, as you've noted. The way to maintain it is to pick good lines, be in the right gear and LOOK WAY UP THE HILL. It works. But it's not a KTM 450, but sure beats the KTM on a long ride.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GSF1200S View Post
Plenty of guys have more skill and are better than me off road, but it has worked for me. I might try a drz with a nova gear set, and see if I like it. That said, the 650 already has low power/torque compared to a road bike, so a 400 might be a bit much. I think a dr790 might be my best bet.
Even at just 37 HP I find I can keep up with most of the guys in my riding groups riding GS's, KTM 990's, 1200 Tenere's and Tiger Explorers. If the pace goes over 90 mph, (which it does from time to time) then I fall back a bit. But up to 80 mph I'm fine. In the twisties no problems keeping up. Off road? ... I leave them behind if things get loose or rough. Trade offs.

I've ridden 500 mile days with guys on DRZ400's. They struggle and are positively BEAT at days end ... even with a Renazco seat. Our DRZ guys have sold them (3 or 4 riders). They are better than the DR650 off road, in sand and mud and rocky terrain, but not close on highway.

More Power? I'd recommend the Husqvarna Terra or Strada to replace your DR650. Faster, smoother. Apparently reliable. Will soon be in short supply.
Buy it now.
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Old 06-20-2013, 10:30 PM   #77779
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Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
More Power? I'd recommend the Husqvarna Terra or Strada to replace your DR650. Faster, smoother. Apparently reliable.

Will soon be in short supply.
As will parts and aftermarket support.
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Originally Posted by Threewheelbonnie View Post
"BTW, I don't do style. It's a dirt bike, not some girlie dress-up thing." -
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Old 06-20-2013, 11:09 PM   #77780
procycle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSF1200S View Post
So what's the difference with the aftermarket one you guys sell? If it puts out more wattage than stock and wattage is a calculation of amperage vs voltage, with more volts at higher rpms is it also moving more amperage? I would assume so since the amount of current is what matters so long as its supplied in the right voltage form. And how does rewiring the stator affect output for the better?
I'm no electrical engineer so I can't really give you a good answer. The high output stator is obviously designed with different parameters in mind than the stocker. Yes, it produces more current to deliver more watts.

With the regulator out of the picture the stator will by itself will put out higher voltage with higher RPM but the current falls off at the same time.

The stock stator can be reconfigured to make higher output by connecting it in a delta rather then the standard wye. This boosts the output but moves the peak up a few hundred RPM.
Read about it here --> http://www.procycle.us/info/articles...ta-stator.html
I did this as an experiment to learn about charging systems. It worked OK but the aftermarket stator is better that a hacked stock one.
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procycle screwed with this post 06-20-2013 at 11:16 PM
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Old 06-21-2013, 03:29 AM   #77781
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
With good technique and proper tire pressures I find the DR climbs OK with 50/50 tires. But NOT in mud. Momentum is key, as you've noted. The way to maintain it is to pick good lines, be in the right gear and LOOK WAY UP THE HILL. It works. But it's not a KTM 450, but sure beats the KTM on a long ride.
I took out my DR650 in the deep dark (wet) forest the other day and considering it has close to a bald knobby; it performed better than expected. The trails have been used mainly by 4wd's and are deeply rutted, steep with intermittent mud patches.

During the course of the day, I stopped a quarter of the way up a 50 to 60ft hill, after gently dropping the bike. I looked what was ahead of me which was a very steep section & believing needed a run up to get up the remainder of the hill. However, I reflected and thought of a different strategy and attempted to ride up without speed. The DR650 just putted up this beasty hill like the tractor it is.

Admittedly it wasn't muddy and having a bald rear tyre, would have been impossible. But nonetheless the dynamic ability the DR presents, is the great all rounder.

I do have my suspension upgraded (hence the reason I was out there, to test it all out) and I reckon I could nearly keep up with some of the other smaller bikes, although my forearms were killing me a couple of hours into the riding, trying to hold this heavish bike up. But I got to cruise home on the open road without revving the holy crap out of it (14 tooth front sprocket)

If this is what it can do in pretty rough conditions, I'm a happy chappy.
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Old 06-21-2013, 03:51 AM   #77782
xKLR_John
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That's true, but if your technique isn't that hot, you're on a bad line, and you start losing momentum, the knobbier rear tire can hook up and bail you out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
With good technique and proper tire pressures I find the DR climbs OK with 50/50 tires. But NOT in mud. Momentum is key, as you've noted. The way to maintain it is to pick good lines, be in the right gear and LOOK WAY UP THE HILL. It works. But it's not a KTM 450, but sure beats the KTM on a long ride.
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Old 06-21-2013, 04:34 AM   #77783
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Originally Posted by GSF1200S View Post
So what's the difference with the aftermarket one you guys sell? If it puts out more wattage than stock and wattage is a calculation of amperage vs voltage, with more volts at higher rpms is it also moving more amperage? I would assume so since the amount of current is what matters so long as its supplied in the right voltage form. And how does rewiring the stator affect output for the better?
Motorcycle Charging Systems 101:
Power (watts) is the product of voltage (volts) and current (amps). The generator (stator and rotor) puts out alternating current that increases in voltage and frequency with engine speed. The voltage regulator/rectifier converts AC to direct current and limits voltage to around 14 VDC (13.5-14.5) Some or all of the output of the VR/R is consumed by the "load" i.e. the electrical components on the bike and keeping the battery charged. The "system" has a maximum power output limited primarily by the capacity of stator. Unlike an automotive alternator which has a feedback system to control output, the bike's generator operates at maximum capacity for a given speed all the time. When the output exceeds the load the excess power is wasted as heat by the VR/R. OTOH, when the load exceeds the output (idle, slow riding, too many lights etc) the battery provides current to supplement the generator output. Obviously the system can operate in "deficit" state only as long as the battery can provide supplemental current. FWIW My Suzukis (currently 5) all intermittently dip into deficit state when waiting at a traffic signal with brake light and turn signals on. A higher output charging system can accomodate a larger load before draining the battery.
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Old 06-21-2013, 04:44 AM   #77784
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thump! View Post
Motorcycle Charging Systems 101:
Power (watts) is the product of voltage (volts) and current (amps). The generator (stator and rotor) puts out alternating current that increases in voltage and frequency with engine speed. The voltage regulator/rectifier converts AC to direct current and limits voltage to around 14 VDC (13.5-14.5) Some or all of the output of the VR/R is consumed by the "load" i.e. the electrical components on the bike and keeping the battery charged. The "system" has a maximum power output limited primarily by the capacity of stator. Unlike an automotive alternator which has a feedback system to control output, the bike's generator operates at maximum capacity for a given speed all the time. When the output exceeds the load the excess power is wasted as heat by the VR/R. OTOH, when the load exceeds the output (idle, slow riding, too many lights etc) the battery provides current to supplement the generator output. Obviously the system can operate in "deficit" state only as long as the battery can provide supplemental current. FWIW My Suzukis (currently 5) all intermittently dip into deficit state when waiting at a traffic signal with brake light and turn signals on. A higher output charging system can accomodate a larger load before draining the battery.
I understand all that which is why an upgraded regulator is necessary etc. I guess i was asking how, if an aftermarket stator puts out more watts, why they don't design them as stock in terms of voltage? Voltage is basically how much electricity wants to travel while amperage is how much electricity travels. If the voltage is higher I guess I don't understand the point? Current (amperage) is what matters as, so long as accessories are supplied the correct voltage, the AMOUNT of electrical output in terms of current determines what you can run accessory wise before using battery as you say.

So I follow you basically, but I don't understand the reasoning behind having the aftermarket run higher voltages..
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Old 06-21-2013, 04:51 AM   #77785
GSF1200S
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
With good technique and proper tire pressures I find the DR climbs OK with 50/50 tires. But NOT in mud. Momentum is key, as you've noted. The way to maintain it is to pick good lines, be in the right gear and LOOK WAY UP THE HILL. It works. But it's not a KTM 450, but sure beats the KTM on a long ride.

Even at just 37 HP I find I can keep up with most of the guys in my riding groups riding GS's, KTM 990's, 1200 Tenere's and Tiger Explorers. If the pace goes over 90 mph, (which it does from time to time) then I fall back a bit. But up to 80 mph I'm fine. In the twisties no problems keeping up. Off road? ... I leave them behind if things get loose or rough. Trade offs.

I've ridden 500 mile days with guys on DRZ400's. They struggle and are positively BEAT at days end ... even with a Renazco seat. Our DRZ guys have sold them (3 or 4 riders). They are better than the DR650 off road, in sand and mud and rocky terrain, but not close on highway.

More Power? I'd recommend the Husqvarna Terra or Strada to replace your DR650. Faster, smoother. Apparently reliable. Will soon be in short supply.
Buy it now.
I've been on hills where the DR could barely hold 50 in top gear (stock gearing). Kick it down and sure it will climb up into the power band enough to climb clear into the 70s. But, add 50 pounds of gear and a headwind and the DR isn't exactly powerful. Not saying its bad by any means.

In terms of line, well, not all of us are great off roaders. I have succeeded picking a line through shit uphill and I have horribly failed But I dare say sometimes there IS NO line.. its just rocks and more loose rocks. Moab taught me that for damn sure. I agree that anything but rocks and mud the Dr is fine with even steep uphill. But when its really bad, the Dr needs a knobbie. Spinning tire loses momentum quick with that pile of lard, but its torque can bail you out if you get some grip in the backyard
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Old 06-21-2013, 05:21 AM   #77786
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Originally Posted by xKLR_John View Post
That's true, but if your technique isn't that hot, you're on a bad line, and you start losing momentum, the knobbier rear tire can hook up and bail you out.
Yeah, I agree here. My technique isn't hot, and many DR riders came to dual sport with a DR and thus like me may not have the skills. Just saying unless you are some ex racer or received tire spoons for your 5th birthday, a knobbie is a really great bail out for the dr650s weight problem off road
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Old 06-21-2013, 06:31 AM   #77787
TinMan207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by procycle View Post
That is normal behavior. The OEM stators in most street going motorcycles are optimized for maximum output at or just above idle speed. The reason is the output curve drops slowly above the peak output rpm but drops off steeply below the peak rpm. The factories want it to be able to charge the battery in slow city traffic.
Thank you Jeff. I'm glad that I don't have to dig into the bowels of my DR, but I guess I need to put one of your high output stators on my x-mas list. At idle, it can handle my heated grips (on high), but at speed I'm discharging slightly. eh, its only money and a good way to learn something new
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Old 06-21-2013, 06:56 AM   #77788
thump!
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Originally Posted by TinMan207 View Post
Thank you Jeff. I'm glad that I don't have to dig into the bowels of my DR, but I guess I need to put one of your high output stators on my x-mas list. At idle, it can handle my heated grips (on high), but at speed I'm discharging slightly. eh, its only money and a good way to learn something new
Discharge would be below about 12.6 volts (i.e. battery voltage) AT THE BATTERY not somewhere out on the peripherals of the wiring where most people attach volt meters. Anything above that is charging. I don't doubt that the voltage is slightly less, but I'd be really surprised if your system charges at idle but doesn't keep up at speed.
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Old 06-21-2013, 08:10 AM   #77789
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Too funny...

...I just logged on to ask some voltage and temperature questions.

I just installed a TrailTech Striker computer on my DR, and was going to search what "indicated" voltage I would want to program for the yellow "warning" LED and the red "danger" LED?

Likewise, I now have a temperature reading from a pickup lead around the base of the outer spark plug.

What will be ideal temps for warning and danger points on the DR?

Cheers!
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Old 06-21-2013, 08:44 AM   #77790
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slow drain....

I recently changed the oil on my DR650 2000 that now has about 25,000 miles. For the second time oil was trapped/pooled in the oil filter area and leaked out from there upon removing the oil filter cover. After warming the engine and draining the oil I remove the oil filter cover only to have oil gush out from there instead of draining down in to the crank case through the drain. This is a new development which coincidently coincides with lots of white smoke at start up (this smoke goes away after about 3 minutes - maybe a separate issue). I tried pushing a heavy duty zip tie down the drain to see if there was an obstruction of some kind and it actually did assist the draining. I thought that perhaps a loose nsu bolt but seems strange it would get caught there. I did take a good spill on the bike at speed and crushed one side of the oil cooler as well. Oil is getting darker than usual.

Any ideas would be awesome, thanks!
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