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Old 06-13-2006, 05:18 AM   #91
patch29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurelius
Here are some on-line reviews of the Andromeda, including usefull comparisons with other kayaks: http://www.paddling.net/Reviews/show....html?prod=844


Thanks, I have read them and like what they say. I am looking at buying it used, so if the price is right I may try it out.
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Old 06-13-2006, 06:58 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patch29
Thanks, I have read them and like what they say. I am looking at buying it used, so if the price is right I may try it out.
Just a word of caution about composite hulls. I'd considered buying my Squamish in something other than rotomolded plastic, but after a bit of research, I was persuaded against it. Its not just the price difference (nearly twice as much!), but the fact that composites are more fragile than plastic, require more maintenance, and are expensive to repair if and when they're damaged. My original assumption that the chance of damaging the hull was fairly small, has been repeatedly refuted by experience. Its amazing the amount of stuff lurking just below the surface, waiting to take a chunk out of your boat. Anything from pitted concrete boat ramps, to sharp rocks just below the sand, pieces of jagged metal that people have dumped in the water, to clumps of razor sharp clam shells. The trouble with the water in lakes and streams is that its so murky that you can't see the danger until you're right on top of it. Two weeks of use has left some pretty bad abrasions and gouges in my kayak, but it doesn't look nearly as bad as the kayak on the rack next to mine, which has a fiberglass hull. Whatever material they coat the fiberglass with is paper thin, and its hull has taken such a beating that I wouldn't be surprised if its no longer water tight.
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Old 06-13-2006, 08:08 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurelius
I've only been kayaking for about a month, and I'm not in the best physical condition. By comparison, racers on lightweight carbon fiber composite surf skis like the Futura II below cruise at roughly 6 mph - only a 1 mph difference.

Unless you're paddling in the ocean with the swell. In that case a surfski or an outrigger will outpace most other kayaks out there by a lot more than 1 mph. The lightweight layup (20 - 27 lbs) makes them easy to catch every little "bump" that their heavier sister craft can't manage to make the drop on.

Even in flat water, a 6 mph cruise vs. 5 mph over a 36 mile race means a 6 hour finish vs. 7+. That 1 mph is 16.6 % difference.
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Old 06-13-2006, 08:31 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurelius
...the fact that composites are more fragile than plastic, require more maintenance, and are expensive to repair if and when they're damaged.
Aurelius, I'd disagree that composite boats are expensive to repair. I've built, beat the hell out of and still use 3 wood-fiberglass composite boats, newest is 12 years old and has yet to require more than minor touch-ups; the 14-yr old just got a few new coats of varnish over the weekend, first real chunk of time I've invested in it since I built it. I've repaired several composite manufactured boats, and it's actually quite inexpensive and straightforward, and the materials are available just about anywhere. One boat I repaired for a friend has got to be 20 years old now and is perfectly serviceable into the foreseeable future, and doesn't look a whole lot worse than when it was manufactured.

There's no doubt the rotomolded boats are alot harder to break, but as far as I know it's still impossible for the average owner to repair anything more than a small pinhole in one, and if left outdoors they do eventually suffer sun damage, which eventually seems to manifest as cracked coamings and such which are impossible to repair back to original strength and watertightness.

It comes down to how much you're willing to pay, how the boat feels to you in the water and whether it's pleasing to your eye, and how hard it is to get the thing to/from the water. It amazes me how much the market has exploded since I built my first boat 16 years ago, but I'm glad to see there's something for everyone; it's a great sport.
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Old 06-13-2006, 10:28 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LC4 Pilot
Unless you're paddling in the ocean with the swell. In that case a surfski or an outrigger will outpace most other kayaks out there by a lot more than 1 mph. The lightweight layup (20 - 27 lbs) makes them easy to catch every little "bump" that their heavier sister craft can't manage to make the drop on.

Even in flat water, a 6 mph cruise vs. 5 mph over a 36 mile race means a 6 hour finish vs. 7+. That 1 mph is 16.6 % difference.
Yes, but read my post in context. We were comparing plastic kayaks with fiberglass kayaks, which someone characterized as being "much quicker". The point I was making is that if the difference in speed between an out of shape middle aged guy in a general purpose plastic kayak vs. a trained racer in a purpose built ultra-light surf ski is only 1 mph, then surely the difference between the same model kayak - one in plastic and the other in fiberglass - is negligible. There may be other reasons why someone would prefer to pay twice as much for a fiberglass kayak than the same model in rotomolded plastic, but I can't imagine the miniscule difference in hull speed being a deciding factor.
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Old 06-13-2006, 10:45 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gringo
Aurelius, I'd disagree that composite boats are expensive to repair. I've built, beat the hell out of and still use 3 wood-fiberglass composite boats, newest is 12 years old and has yet to require more than minor touch-ups; the 14-yr old just got a few new coats of varnish over the weekend, first real chunk of time I've invested in it since I built it. I've repaired several composite manufactured boats, and it's actually quite inexpensive and straightforward, and the materials are available just about anywhere. One boat I repaired for a friend has got to be 20 years old now and is perfectly serviceable into the foreseeable future, and doesn't look a whole lot worse than when it was manufactured.
Just out of curiosity, what sorts of things has your hull hit in the time you've owned it? Mine's already got some serious hull lacerations in just two weeks of use - the worst of it being from the beds of razor sharp clams I ran aground on last Sunday.

Quote:
There's no doubt the rotomolded boats are alot harder to break, but as far as I know it's still impossible for the average owner to repair anything more than a small pinhole in one, and if left outdoors they do eventually suffer sun damage, which eventually seems to manifest as cracked coamings and such which are impossible to repair back to original strength and watertightness.
I apply a coating of UV blocker every three weeks, which is supposed to prevent that. It says so on the bottle, so it must be true.
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Old 06-13-2006, 08:14 PM   #97
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Hey Gringo- have you ever varnished the custom wooden mast stay of a Nautiraid kayak sailing rig??? Hmmm??? Have ya?!? It's perfectly windy down here these days~
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Old 06-13-2006, 08:40 PM   #98
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Seawards are built like 1.5 hours from my house, in Duncan.
Lets keep this thread going, learning lots
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Old 06-13-2006, 08:52 PM   #99
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Post some pics, brotha man! Show these FF's what a real boat looks like!!!
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Old 06-13-2006, 08:52 PM   #100
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Just a couple of cool 'yakkin pix

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Old 06-13-2006, 09:03 PM   #101
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Whoa! Sail over here, Betties!!!
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Old 06-14-2006, 12:42 AM   #102
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The greater efficiency of a composite kayak IS worth it too me. When you're out there all day, or for multiple days, and you're paddling against wind and or currents, it adds up.

The smooth efficient lines of a composite boat are perfect right out of the mold and stay that way forever. The poly boats are a little warped even when new and do nothin but get worse with age. They take the shape of whatever they're resting on. Be it on a car rack or a rocky beach in the hot sun. I'm refering to roto molded plastic here that most mfgs are using as opposed to the Airalite or injection mold a few others are using.

Oh yeah, while I'm thinking of it, 100% Deet bug dope is very popular up here. It melts plastic. If you ever spill a bottle of it in a plastic boat, wipe it up and you'll be fine. But leave it there and it will eat a hole in your plastic boat. We've seen it happen in our plastic rental canoes!

Over the years I've owned many models of different brands and still haven't had to ever do a repair to any glass or kevlar boats. Yes, some gelcoat has worn off but that's what it's there for. Most composite boats are layed up to withstand surf landings w/o any problems. Oh yeah, I've never gotten out of my boat off shore either. I've always just run it up onto shore and jumped out hopefully before the next wave hit. They have been mostly various sized rounded rock beaches with some sharp jagged rocky ones and very few sandy ones.

I do take pretty good care of my gear and I tell folks that hearing the aweful sound of a composite boat on rocks might even help them take better care of theirs. But I also encourage people to avoid dragging plastic boats.

Then there's the weight difference. No big deal in the water. But getting your boat on and off your rig and to and from the water is sure a lot nicer with a lighter boat!

Do you value aesthetics? I do. (Why do you think I ride a Ducati?) :uhhuh I don't mind paying more for something I think looks pretty. Especially if I'm gonna be looking at it for hours or days on end and it's a big part of my life like my kayaks have been thru the yrs.

Yes, if I were doing a lot of "rock gardening" out in the ocean I would prefer a plastic boat. And yes of course my whitewater boats ARE plastic!

Happy paddling. Mark H.
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Old 06-14-2006, 04:50 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKDuc
Oh yeah, while I'm thinking of it, 100% Deet bug dope is very popular up here. It melts plastic. If you ever spill a bottle of it in a plastic boat, wipe it up and you'll be fine. But leave it there and it will eat a hole in your plastic boat. We've seen it happen in our plastic rental canoes!
Yep, the subject of Deet came up for discussion on the UKGSer forum recently. Users reported that even the small amount of Deet on their hands was enough to melt the rubber handgrips on their motorcycles. Not surprisingly, products containing a lot of Deet have also been identified as a cancer risk. Not something I plan to use in future.

Quote:
Over the years I've owned many models of different brands and still haven't had to ever do a repair to any glass or kevlar boats. Yes, some gelcoat has worn off but that's what it's there for. Most composite boats are layed up to withstand surf landings w/o any problems. Oh yeah, I've never gotten out of my boat off shore either. I've always just run it up onto shore and jumped out hopefully before the next wave hit. They have been mostly various sized rounded rock beaches with some sharp jagged rocky ones and very few sandy ones.
Good to know. I'm considering buying a surf ski, and these reports of how rugged composite hulls are take away most of my concerns. If they really are that easy to repair, it shouldn't be a problem.

Quote:
Then there's the weight difference. No big deal in the water. But getting your boat on and off your rig and to and from the water is sure a lot nicer with a lighter boat!
Here again, I think the differences are greatly exaggerated. If you compare the weight differences between the same model kayaks in the Current Designs catalog, you'll see that the difference between plastic and fiberglass versions is only 4-5 pounds for an average sized kayak. You can shave off another 5 lbs by going with a carbon fiber composite, but now instead of paying twice as much, you're paying more than three times as much.

Quote:
Do you value aesthetics? I do. (Why do you think I ride a Ducati?) :uhhuh I don't mind paying more for something I think looks pretty. Especially if I'm gonna be looking at it for hours or days on end and it's a big part of my life like my kayaks have been thru the yrs.
I used the same reasoning, but came to just the opposite conclusion. Knowing the kind of abuse kayaks take, I wanted something that wasn't an object of art and would absorb scrapes and scratches without looking much worse for the wear. Its much like buying a dirtbike - if you're afraid to lay it down, you're not going to ride it like it was designed to be ridden. I watched with some amusement the guys in their "trailer queen" kayaks last week. They never got within ten feet of the shore for fear of scratching their beautifully painted hulls, and didn't dare follow us into any low water areas where their hulls might drag over something. That means that for them, most of the best kayaking areas in Florida are off limits.
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Old 06-14-2006, 05:55 AM   #104
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Just floating down the Elkhorn last weekend . . .

Couple of inexpensive Wilderness System rec kayaks . . .

pound puppy pet has to ride along


kids LOVE boats



sometimes it's more fun w/o a boat
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Old 06-14-2006, 06:07 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Jabba
Hey Gringo- have you ever varnished the custom wooden mast stay of a Nautiraid kayak sailing rig??? Hmmm??? Have ya?!? It's perfectly windy down here these days~
it'll be in the mail tomorrow... w/4 coats of the finest dutch varnish
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