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Old 06-29-2010, 10:25 PM   #15106
pierce
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilGenius
How do you measure out the different parts of a frame?

I don't plan on making my own anytime soon, but I'm curious how that's done.

Specifically for a road bike.
I used a tape measure :)

these are the core measurements


as far as how do you decide what geometry? well, you find something that works, and try what you think will make it better. it really depends on your goals. my goals are a comfortable bike thats fun to ride, thats still reasonably efficient, and has some character. I want a bike that I can ride quite slowly in heavy pedestrian traffic, that can turn very tight low speed maneuvers, but that rides well at speed, too. I'm hoping I can use 40c tires on hardpack trails too, but nothing too radical.

in the 70s, many of my friends had ordered frames from masters, english, american, italian... there were formulas, standard sizes that they'd make subtle changes to according to your needs. friend of mine had a harry jackson or something, was a awesome brit frame, all 531, campy. fully chromed frame with elegant stenciled paint, and fancy cut lugs.
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pierce screwed with this post 06-29-2010 at 10:30 PM
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Old 06-29-2010, 10:37 PM   #15107
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I'm basically curious about the geometry for a roadbike for my size.

6'1" with 32" inseam.

I want a basic strong simple frame.
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Old 06-29-2010, 10:53 PM   #15108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilGenius
I'm basically curious about the geometry for a roadbike for my size.

6'1" with 32" inseam.

I want a basic strong simple frame.
old school, I'd say you're probably a 23 or 25", back when road bikes came in 3-4 sizes, and were generically known as '10-speeds'. new school, you're probably a 58cm, maybe bigger, maybe smaller, kinda depends how long your torso is..

there's lots of little companies that make classic brazed steel road frames in classic geometry.

or you can go to a bike boutique store, where they put you on a special road bike frame with a fitting consultant, and measure you, and come up with recommendations for everything. of course, its expected that you'll buy the $7600 bike and put $1000 more of custom sized carbon bits on it.

If you wanna go the low budget way, find an older good lugged steel frame, and kit it out with parts. any good european frame is going to be too much $$, but there's lots of good jap steel frames out there, fuji, miyata, various US brand names. double butted lugged tange frames can be very nice.

If you want a good idea what size road bike, hit a specialized dealer, and try out Tricross cyclocross frames for size. try and ignore the price tag, you're just seeing how they fit. try a 58. warning, the tricross 'comp' is an aluring bike.



when you figure out what fits, go to the manufacturers webpile, look up the model and size, and its geometry.


ps. 23" is 58cm, hah!
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Old 06-29-2010, 11:00 PM   #15109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pierce
old school, I'd say you're probably a 23 or 25", back when road bikes came in 3-4 sizes, and were generically known as '10-speeds'. new school, you're probably a 58cm, maybe bigger, maybe smaller, kinda depends how long your torso is..

there's lots of little companies that make classic brazed steel road frames in classic geometry.

or you can go to a bike boutique store, where they put you on a special road bike frame with a fitting consultant, and measure you, and come up with recommendations for everything. of course, its expected that you'll buy the $7600 bike and put $1000 more of custom sized carbon bits on it.

If you wanna go the low budget way, find an older good lugged steel frame, and kit it out with parts. any good european frame is going to be too much $$, but there's lots of good jap steel frames out there, fuji, miyata, various US brand names. double butted lugged tange frames can be very nice.

If you want a good idea what size road bike, hit a specialized dealer, and try out Tricross cyclocross frames for size. try and ignore the price tag, you're just seeing how they fit. try a 58. warning, the tricross 'comp' is an aluring bike.



when you figure out what fits, go to the manufacturers webpile, look up the model and size, and its geometry.


ps. 23" is 58cm, hah!
Cool.

Define "butted" and "lugged".
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Old 06-29-2010, 11:03 PM   #15110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilGenius
I'm basically curious about the geometry for a roadbike for my size.

6'1" with 32" inseam.

I want a basic strong simple frame.
plan B...

find something classic like this
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/bik/1816700639.html

and put the gears BACK on it. you can find a beat up usableset of shimano 105 road derailleurs for $30 at a bike recycle shop, that one needs a new big chainring ($25-40) since some idiot filed the teeth off, and put a IRD 7-speed freewheel back on it for $25 or $30, and have a 14-speed... might have to redish the rear wheel to fit the 7-speed, a good LBS will do that for $25-30.

that looks to be a 23 or 24" frame from the length of the head tube.
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Old 06-29-2010, 11:12 PM   #15111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilGenius
Cool.

Define "butted" and "lugged".
modern frames are all glued or welded aluminum or carbon fiber high tech stuff. brittle fragile carbon fiber that weighs nothing.

bikes used and still are made from steel.

steel tubing comes in various types and grades, the cheapest heavy stuff used on old clunker bikes was simple carbon steel, then there were various chrome-moly steels, and finally fancy chrome-vanadium steels like the classic Reynolds 531, made in UK.

The better grade of 531 was 'Double Butted' where the tubes were fabricated with thinner walls in the middle of the lentghs, and thicker reinforced ends where the joints are.

Steel tubing can be joined by welding or fitting into lugs and silver brazing. fine frames were always lugged and brazed.




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Old 06-30-2010, 01:19 AM   #15112
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all that fancy stuff aside, there's lots of good steels, not just the expensive euro stuff... for instance, tange double butted as used on better specialized, miyata, fuji frames, and so forth. good frames have forged tips for the wheels, and be light and stiff but springy

there's a lot of bike frames out there that are complete and total crap, too. heavy soft steel, stamped ends, dead ride. you can't go by the brand, you kinda need a clue what it is, or how to recognize a good frame from bad one.

decent wheels are important too. spokes must be stainless, and ideally double butted, tension should be even, rim and brake surface smooth, and bearings must be good quality. 700c rims should be double wall. I'm not a fan of the deep V things with all the crap written on them, gimme plain thin silver hoops any day.

as a budget example, the taiwan circa 1999 wheels I got with this $45 Diamondback aren't half bad. joytech steel hubs (the cheap kind) but with good quality bearing surfaces. they were touchier to setup than high end alloy cone hubs.

anyways, lotsa good asian steel bikes made in the 80s/90s from the better factories and brands. that Trek 612 the guy turned into a fixie a few pages back, I would have fixed the gears, and used it as a road bike.
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Old 06-30-2010, 07:12 AM   #15113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pierce
all that fancy stuff aside, there's lots of good steels, not just the expensive euro stuff... for instance, tange double butted as used on better specialized, miyata, fuji frames, and so forth. good frames have forged tips for the wheels, and be light and stiff but springy

there's a lot of bike frames out there that are complete and total crap, too. heavy soft steel, stamped ends, dead ride. you can't go by the brand, you kinda need a clue what it is, or how to recognize a good frame from bad one.

decent wheels are important too. spokes must be stainless, and ideally double butted, tension should be even, rim and brake surface smooth, and bearings must be good quality. 700c rims should be double wall. I'm not a fan of the deep V things with all the crap written on them, gimme plain thin silver hoops any day.

as a budget example, the taiwan circa 1999 wheels I got with this $45 Diamondback aren't half bad. joytech steel hubs (the cheap kind) but with good quality bearing surfaces. they were touchier to setup than high end alloy cone hubs.

anyways, lotsa good asian steel bikes made in the 80s/90s from the better factories and brands. that Trek 612 the guy turned into a fixie a few pages back, I would have fixed the gears, and used it as a road bike.
If you're talking about mine (the Trek conversion) i turned it into a single speed. I did that because it's a lock up bike, outside in brooklyn, with a giant Krypto chain. I already have road bikes, and this was to be a simple but elegant grocery getter, or ride to the bar rig.

Also the derailleurs were beyond repair and I wasn't putting anything but sweat, grease and tires into it.

The frame is nice though, smooth roller, good shape as a lugged steel. We also determined through that Trek ID site from the serial # that it was a custom frame (1979). Renyolds.
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Old 06-30-2010, 07:24 AM   #15114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilGenius
I'm basically curious about the geometry for a roadbike for my size.

6'1" with 32" inseam.

I want a basic strong simple frame.
You make it sound simple. Like there is a magic formula for the perfect bike. Frame geometry is a complex and often discussed concept and it is also dependent on frame material, the desired ride characteristics and the intended use.

Also, not every manufacturer measures their bikes in a consistent manner. With compact frames, there is some wiggle room as to the exact measurements. Some use a projected top tube length, others don't.

Go to the LBS (actually several of them) and look at various models. Ride bunch of them and then you can decide.
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Old 06-30-2010, 07:42 AM   #15115
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Originally Posted by kbasa
No problems with bunching at all. Just be careful to get them in a length that allows for decent pedal form.
I figured there might be some things to look out for. I'll need to nose around STL shops, as nobody carries MTB apparel, around here. I don't want to dick around with returns/shipping with the internet.

I wear a certain brand of work shorts, as leg length is critical for someone like me who does a lot of climbing and squating. Too long a short hangs up on the kneecap.

Quote:
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Don't forget chamois cream!

TMI Moment: Now that I'm "of a certain age" some of my boy parts tend to stick to my leg. Chamois cream keeps that from happening. Worth the money to eliminate any potential chafing issues.
I never ride without it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilGenius
I'm basically curious about the geometry for a roadbike for my size.

6'1" with 32" inseam.

I want a basic strong simple frame.
You may consider something from Surly. Most everything they have is basic steel and most are in the $1100-$1500 range. Many LD riders buy the Long Haul Trucker and hit the road on cross-country trips, in out-of-the-box spec. So, must be fairly decent stuff, as they look for simple and reliable bikes.

As "pierce" suggested, a 58cm is probably a good start. Or, a 60cm, if you like a little more room. I always error on the smaller side, as I like a tighter feeling bike. Again, you might test ride some bikes to see what you prefer.

Make sure to look at geometry specs for top tube length. Many manufacturers use the seat tube length for the advertised frame size.

I'm a happy owner of a Specialized Tricross Comp. Versus a true road bike, it has opened up a lot more opportunities to ride. If I spot a dirt road or path, I take it. I'm just having a blast with the bike.
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Old 06-30-2010, 08:06 AM   #15116
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You can't beat a Surly for the price, their full builds are a great deal!


So are Raleighs.
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Old 06-30-2010, 11:35 AM   #15117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zodiac
You can't beat a Surly for the price, their full builds are a great deal!


So are Raleighs.
evilgenius is riding a $150 Target schwinn comfort-bike. I'm guessing he's not quite ready for a Surly or another custom frame (rock lobster, echelon, waterford, 100s more little boutique companies build nice(!) custom steel frames in the $1000+ range for frame+forks).

I was trying to give him some info he could use to intelligently shop for an oldie-but-goodie on craigslist or whatever.
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Old 06-30-2010, 11:40 AM   #15118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pierce
evilgenius is riding a $150 Target schwinn comfort-bike. I'm guessing he's not quite ready for a Surly or another custom frame (rock lobster, echelon, waterford, 100s more little boutique companies build nice(!) custom steel frames in the $1000+ range for frame+forks).

I was trying to give him some info he could use to intelligently shop for an oldie-but-goodie on craigslist or whatever.

I've seen some good cheap deals for Surly's on CL, sometimes 1/2 price of new.

Also, just to clarify for EG, the Surly isn't a custom frame - just a good chinese chromoly double butted tank.

A Surly frame (new) alone is only around 300+ bucks.
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Old 06-30-2010, 12:00 PM   #15119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zodiac
I've seen some good cheap deals for Surly's on CL, sometimes 1/2 price of new.

Also, just to clarify for EG, the Surly isn't a custom frame - just a good chinese chromoly double butted tank.

A Surly frame (new) alone is only around 300+ bucks.
so if you were to custom build a bike for that, based on what I've been finding parts for, and assuming you don't want to go beater parts, I'd expect something like...
  • $300 - frame
  • $300+ - wheelset (probably $400 for decent-not-fancy 36-spoke touring rims)
  • $100 - front,rear Tiagra derailleur (reasonable inexpensive road parts)
  • $100 - Sugino crankset
  • $25 - bottom bracket
  • $50 - cheap but effective V-brakes
  • $60 - decent seat
  • $30 - seatpost
  • $25 - headset
  • $70 - decent road bars
  • $100 - road brakelevers+shifters
  • $10 - cables etc

we're somewhere up around $1200 and this bike just has cheap serviceable bits on it. its REAL easy to spend triple those amounts on fancier kit like Ultegra.

building your own wheels from, say, Velocity Dyad or Synergy rims (classic look, modern materials == win win), you could easily spend $150 on a pair of rims, $72 on 36*2 good spokes at $1 each, and $150 for shimano 105 (midrange) hubs... see, thats $400 already before labor (figure about $100 shop cost to build two wheels by someone who's good).
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Old 06-30-2010, 12:02 PM   #15120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducnut
I figured there might be some things to look out for. I'll need to nose around STL shops, as nobody carries MTB apparel, around here. I don't want to dick around with returns/shipping with the internet.

I wear a certain brand of work shorts, as leg length is critical for someone like me who does a lot of climbing and squating. Too long a short hangs up on the kneecap.



I never ride without it.




You may consider something from Surly. Most everything they have is basic steel and most are in the $1100-$1500 range. Many LD riders buy the Long Haul Trucker and hit the road on cross-country trips, in out-of-the-box spec. So, must be fairly decent stuff, as they look for simple and reliable bikes.

As "pierce" suggested, a 58cm is probably a good start. Or, a 60cm, if you like a little more room. I always error on the smaller side, as I like a tighter feeling bike. Again, you might test ride some bikes to see what you prefer.

Make sure to look at geometry specs for top tube length. Many manufacturers use the seat tube length for the advertised frame size.

I'm a happy owner of a Specialized Tricross Comp. Versus a true road bike, it has opened up a lot more opportunities to ride. If I spot a dirt road or path, I take it. I'm just having a blast with the bike.
I have the same measurements than EV (6'1 and 32 inseam) and a 60 is going to be too long.

Unless he goes for the sweep back bars.
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