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Old 07-28-2011, 01:17 PM   #21181
yater
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We ride two abreast all the time...and when a car comes up behind us, we say "car back" and move over. The drivers appreciate it and give us plenty of room. I'm not sure why so many people are having problems.
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Old 07-28-2011, 02:01 PM   #21182
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"Full bicycle lanes able to accommodate two, or more, abreast"

Every one thinks bike lanes are the answer,I commute and part of my ride is on a bike lane. as a rider the bike lanes more dangerous than the road . you've got parked cars on one side,if they open thier door it exends in the bike lane so you ride closer to traffic lane. That leaves you 18 inches to avoid obstrutions in the roadway, and puts you that much closer to traffic that asumes you're not going to get out of bike lane.


This bike way is only 4 miles long.I really think it's there so the city can say they are a bike friendy city.
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Old 07-28-2011, 02:12 PM   #21183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svejkovat View Post
My original question does not apply to roads without an adequate paved shoulder to the right of the white line. Of course it wouldn't. That's just common sense.

It doesn't apply to competative team riding. Let's just restrict it to the casual groups. How do I know? A mixture including adolescents, women of less than ideal weight who are attempting to rid themselves of it (kudos to you), and middle aged men with gray beards generally does not suggest a racing team. These are the groups of which I speak. Of course I could be wrong.

My observations do not apply to the roads in Europe either, where, as I've mentioned we have available here, there are often no adequate alternatives (full margins or bike paths) available for those who wish to socialize while riding. More significantly, many of the roads in Europe evolved from foot and bikeways where eventually the automobile was the interloper! In this country, in most instances, roadways developed in exactly the opposite fashion. Intermediate roads, in this country, back in the roadway boom years, were really not constructed with large groups of bicyclists in mind. Bicycle transportation was simply not much of a factor in those years. That's changing, as is easy to see, in most new road construction.

100 riders at once... we're looking again at some possible exception here, and such growth in riding may eventually bring change to the way all new roads are constructed. Full bicycle lanes able to accommodate two, or more, abreast.

But that's not nearly the case in the vast majority of group rides I'm describing. Here in western Michigan, along the lake shore, on the roads that I am seeing riders two abreast, there is ample and well maintained margin to the right of the white line. It would be wonderful if that margin could accommodate two abreast, and then we wouldn't be discussing this.... but it usually does not. There are bikepaths along all these roads for those who genuinely wish to socialize while riding. The speeds average 45 to 55 mph on these roads. In this environment, which is representative of many developing sub/exurban areas in the U.S., there are groups of riders, doubling up and using the road for apparently none of the reasons offered in this thread except to socialize with one another.

I'm a bicycle rider and a fairly serious one. And as a driver it just pisses me off to see it.
I'm finding this statement pretty impossible to believe judging from your comments.

BTW you didn't counter any of my group or passing groups/individuals comments, why is that? And all those "overweight women and middle aged men" are most likely in what bike clubs call group rides i.e. organized rides. They still ride in formations when possible.

Besides, what's your rush, you can just wait all of 1 minute and when you're clear pass em. This will get you to the Walmart or the Quikie-mart a bit late, but I'm sure your boss will be okay with this...

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Old 07-28-2011, 02:36 PM   #21184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zodiac View Post
I'm finding this statement pretty impossible to believe judging from your comments.

BTW you didn't counter any of my group or passing groups/individuals comments, why is that? And all those "overweight women and middle aged men" are most likely in what bike clubs call group rides i.e. organized rides. They still ride in formations when possible.

Besides, what's your rush, you can just wait all of 1 minute and when you're clear pass em. This will get you to the Walmart or the Quikie-mart a bit late, but I'm sure your boss will be okay with this...


I once rode with a tag-along who insisted on riding to my left and taking the lane. I cut the ride short and went my own way because I was embarrassed to be seen with him. I won't ride with a jackass like that. It's like "stuntas" taking up the tollway on purpose.
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Old 07-28-2011, 04:39 PM   #21185
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I did, within reason, address the passing groups question. 100 riders? We've got a debate here. About a dozen, which is pretty common, and generally the groups that I'm having a problem with? Or the idiot mentioned above simply riding with one other? Stay out of the automobile lane if you have adequate shoulder to ride on single file. That's pretty much in what I inferred (if you paid any attention at all) in previous posts.

Quote:
I'm a bicycle rider and a fairly serious one
Quote:
I'm finding this statement pretty impossible to believe judging from your comments.
You may be incapable of holding two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time. I'm sorry for that. If you can't process the fact that I'm a serious bicyclist, and at the same time discredit some of the stupid behavior of other bicyclists, then any further understanding between us might be impossible.

Quote:
"Shut The Fuck Up already"
Really?

I mean really?

Your're weighing into a discussion, with civility in the focus, and have that to offer?

??????

I'm apparently in the wrong forum to discuss this stuff. I kinda expected more from ADVrider, which is 99 percent adults I would guess.

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Old 07-28-2011, 04:46 PM   #21186
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I've ridden around a quarter million miles over a 20 year racing career. I also ride to work every day, unless I walk. I have ridden in places like St. Louis, SF, LA, Chicago, Seattle, Portland, suburbs, exurbs, and in the BFE sticks, and traveled by bike across the US and in many other countries. I have

never

ever

whether riding solo, in a group of two, ten, or hundreds, witnessed any motorist be forced to take emergency, evasive action to avoid hitting a cyclist or going off the road while coming up behind me or while overtaking a group.

What I have seen is impatient, dangerous motorists passing on hills, double yellow lines, too close for safety, with oncoming traffic, on curves, intentionally grazing cyclists or waiting until the last second to slow down instead of slightly slowing early so that they don't have to brake hard late. I've also seen cyclists ride more than two abreast.

I have been driving for about 30 years, and I have

never

ever

been threatened or endangered by a cyclist anywhere, and I've never had to slam on the brakes to avoid one. Hell, I've rarely even been inconvenienced by a cyclist. The very worst is: I've had to slow down.

That's right...I had to 1) take my foot off the gas, and then sometimes 2) step on the brake, and then 3) step on the gas again.

So can someone explain why I should be getting angry about having to take these three steps when it's necessary to help ensure public safety on our roads? Because I don't see the problem. Especially in light of the fact that, whether on moto, bicycle or in the car, I am routinely delayed, endangered, and inconvenienced waaaaaay more often and for longer at a time by unnecessary cars on the road, recreational drivers, and people who just like to drive alone when they could carpool, walk or bike. You want to drive alone just because? Fine. Just don't come in here complaining about congestion, delays, hazards, vehicle choice, or recreational road users.

Now, I have seen plenty of cyclists do shit that pisses me off, and it pisses me off because many motorists are perfectly willing to generalize the behavior of the worst cyclist to the rest of us while ignoring the real problems on the road, namely, motorists' own attitudes and driving habits. It's hard to look in that mirror and admit that we as motorists are the true problem.

So where are all these motorists driving such that they're constantly delayed by cyclists? Why do they claim to have such a difficult time navigating normal traffic (which includes bikes)? Why do they claim to be angered by two-up riders when the real cause of ALL of the congestion, hazard, and inconvenience they lament is themselves and their single-occupancy fellow motorists? I listen to drivers who complain that they're constantly having to "slam on the brakes" as if some cyclist is in control of the car and preventing the motorist from stepping on the brake at a prudent time, when in fact anyone who goes around having to "slam on their brakes" all the time is the source of the problem, nobody else.

The day that cyclists cause even a negligible amount of hazard, delay, and congestion compared to these johnny-come-latelies in their cages will be a great day for our nation.
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Old 07-28-2011, 05:02 PM   #21187
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Yes, yes, and in fact.... yes! All good. But it continues to sidestep the fact that in the cases I'm describing, and I'm really trying very hard to make this clear in contrast to the many situations that keep being proposed, it is completely unnecessary for the group to be two abreast. What of this? I agree with 100 percent of what you state above. I really do. Delayed by cyclists? That's fine. If they're, to the best of their ability, sharing the responsibility to keep travel, for everyone, as safe as possible. I'm just saying that two abreast, when they really don't need to be, is just idiocy and does no good for any of us when sharing the roadway is being considered overall. And I'm being attacked for voicing that opinion here?

I don't know for sure, but I'd imagine that if you really wanted to walk three abreast, for five miles, just for the purpose of having a nice conversation with your friends, you legally have the right of way. Yes, it's probably legal. But just silly. Everyone driving would be compelled to make way for you as a pedestrians. To what point? When there are such obvious, and far safer alternatives, you're just being a nuisance.

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Old 07-28-2011, 07:36 PM   #21188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schnickelfritz View Post
I've ridden around a quarter million miles over a 20 year racing career. I also ride to work every day, unless I walk. I have ridden in places like St. Louis, SF, LA, Chicago, Seattle, Portland, suburbs, exurbs, and in the BFE sticks, and traveled by bike across the US and in many other countries. I have

never

ever

whether riding solo, in a group of two, ten, or hundreds, witnessed any motorist be forced to take emergency, evasive action to avoid hitting a cyclist or going off the road while coming up behind me or while overtaking a group.

What I have seen is impatient, dangerous motorists passing on hills, double yellow lines, too close for safety, with oncoming traffic, on curves, intentionally grazing cyclists or waiting until the last second to slow down instead of slightly slowing early so that they don't have to brake hard late. I've also seen cyclists ride more than two abreast.

I have been driving for about 30 years, and I have

never

ever

been threatened or endangered by a cyclist anywhere, and I've never had to slam on the brakes to avoid one. Hell, I've rarely even been inconvenienced by a cyclist. The very worst is: I've had to slow down.

That's right...I had to 1) take my foot off the gas, and then sometimes 2) step on the brake, and then 3) step on the gas again.

So can someone explain why I should be getting angry about having to take these three steps when it's necessary to help ensure public safety on our roads? Because I don't see the problem. Especially in light of the fact that, whether on moto, bicycle or in the car, I am routinely delayed, endangered, and inconvenienced waaaaaay more often and for longer at a time by unnecessary cars on the road, recreational drivers, and people who just like to drive alone when they could carpool, walk or bike. You want to drive alone just because? Fine. Just don't come in here complaining about congestion, delays, hazards, vehicle choice, or recreational road users.

Now, I have seen plenty of cyclists do shit that pisses me off, and it pisses me off because many motorists are perfectly willing to generalize the behavior of the worst cyclist to the rest of us while ignoring the real problems on the road, namely, motorists' own attitudes and driving habits. It's hard to look in that mirror and admit that we as motorists are the true problem.

So where are all these motorists driving such that they're constantly delayed by cyclists? Why do they claim to have such a difficult time navigating normal traffic (which includes bikes)? Why do they claim to be angered by two-up riders when the real cause of ALL of the congestion, hazard, and inconvenience they lament is themselves and their single-occupancy fellow motorists? I listen to drivers who complain that they're constantly having to "slam on the brakes" as if some cyclist is in control of the car and preventing the motorist from stepping on the brake at a prudent time, when in fact anyone who goes around having to "slam on their brakes" all the time is the source of the problem, nobody else.

The day that cyclists cause even a negligible amount of hazard, delay, and congestion compared to these johnny-come-latelies in their cages will be a great day for our nation.
Well spoken!
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Old 07-28-2011, 07:38 PM   #21189
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You still haven't gotten it yet, have you?

Next topic

How bout 'which aero wheels do I need to ride 19mph instead of 18mph?

or

Why is that wanker drafting me and what can I do about it?!

or

How to get the stupid triathlete off their aero bars in the paceline!

You know... IMPORTANT stuff!

M
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Old 07-28-2011, 08:06 PM   #21190
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Will this bicycle bell make my bike faster? Or me fatter?

Is it bad form to fart when leading the pace line? Even if you're a vegan? I mean it is organic.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Gummee! View Post
You still haven't gotten it yet, have you?

Next topic

How bout 'which aero wheels do I need to ride 19mph instead of 18mph?

or

Why is that wanker drafting me and what can I do about it?!

or

How to get the stupid triathlete off their aero bars in the paceline!

You know... IMPORTANT stuff!

M
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Old 07-28-2011, 08:24 PM   #21191
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Yes I know is 205 But who cares, this guy is amazing.

Link to VIDEO
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Old 07-28-2011, 08:55 PM   #21192
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Quote:
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Yes I know is 205 But who cares, this guy is amazing.

Link to VIDEO
It is such a well done video.
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Old 07-28-2011, 09:02 PM   #21193
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Whether or not the traffic is inconvenienced is immaterial because cyclists are also part of the road traffic. I'd wager a larger percentage of the population is blissfully ignorant of the dictum to "keep right, pass left" than the number of cyclists who are riding two abreast.

I read a study (right here on this website. Couldn't be bothered to find the link) that stated that one of the reasons why motorcyclists and cyclists were invisible is because of the lack of "visual mass." Most drivers easily pick up a vehicle because its width presents visual mass that a cyclist or motorcyclist just doesn't. Perhaps the riders riding two abreast are simply trying to be more visible, and less prone to getting hit by errant drivers who are too busy with their iPad, kids, food, makeup, whatever.
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Old 07-28-2011, 09:14 PM   #21194
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After looking at ALL the photos that you take of yourself, I would have to say that the bell would make you look fatter. just saying...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Head View Post
Will this bicycle bell make my bike faster? Or me fatter?

Is it bad form to fart when leading the pace line? Even if you're a vegan? I mean it is organic.

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Old 07-28-2011, 10:05 PM   #21195
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How long in yards or miles is the section with room for a cyclist right of the line? Are there any intersections? Curbs or bumpouts? How far apart? Cracks or debris? If so, then it is unreasonable to expect anyone to ride out there and then swing back onto the travel lane every few minutes, especially with a large group. (Note "travel lane." There are no "automobile lanes" except on the interstates.)

The bikes should stay two abreast even if that means the ones on the left are over the line. It's a group and should stay as compact as possible, not stretched out in a single line. Two-up riding halves the length of the group, discourages improper passing by motorists, increases visibility, and improves communication. The group should not try to rearrange unnecessarily.

The prevailing speed on that road at that location is that of the cyclists, so 20mph is a reasonable speed to expect drivers to maintain until they pass. The cars will be traveling at that speed if their operators apply the brakes enough. Read the last sentence again. This is important and a reasonable expectation of anyone who has a driver's license.

Your arguments about the purpose of the cyclists' presence on the road are completely beside the point. Everyone uses the roads to socialize, sometimes in cars, sometimes on bikes. And no matter their reasons, they are certainly as legitimate as our societal single-occupancy car fetish, which is disguised as importance and which drives oncoming traffic volumes up and thus prevents you from passing those cyclists as soon as you'd like. So what if the cyclists happen to enjoy having a conversation while on the bike. After all, people drive all over to have conversations, or meals, or watch movies or ballgames, and recreational drivers will always contribute orders of magnitude more congestion than cyclists. So what? Should they not use the roads? They are tying up traffic. They are keeping you from passing. They are slowing you down. Intentionally. Because they want to drive somewhere and have a conversation. Sometimes we must slow down. It's a fact of driving on public roads.

The problem seems to be motorist temperament, and the question seems be how cyclists should best tiptoe around it. The answer is: they can't. Motorists like to pretend that cyclists are deliberately harassing them or are intentionally riding around trying to tie up traffic, all in order to justify motorists' anger at having to step on the brake for any reason. Cyclists provide an easy outlet; easier, certainly, than a long look in the mirror. I don't like it when groups of cyclists get sloppy on the road and start taking up more than half a lane. It projects a poor image. But that's about all it does.

Indeed, an actuarial looking at the purely hypothetical example you gave might just as likely find the numbers reversed while we're pulling numbers out of the air. In this exercise, that would suggest both lines of riders should be in the travel lane. Visibility and all that. Which happens to be exactly why riders should ride two abreast. (Actuarial also will not take up issue of remedies to habitual offender drivers, toys in/on the dashboard, establishment and serious enforcement of cell phone laws, license revocations, or otherwise address the actual problem (bad drivers) hypothesized in the example, but I digress.)

Note that it is improper to pass even one cyclist if there is oncoming traffic. Passing a cyclist who is just two feet from the edge of the road, who himself is two feet wide, while leaving the required 3-4 feet of passing distance puts your car in the oncoming lane. So let's review: if there's oncoming traffic on a two-lane road, you should not be passing. Period. Even a single cyclist. And if there is NOT oncoming traffic, it really doesn't matter how many abreast cyclists ride, does it? So we can also dispense with the common pretense that cyclists are creating a "hazard" when in fact they are doing the safe and sensible thing when riding in a group. Hit from behind just doesn't happen without a major driver error or criminal act. (The real crime is the reluctance of LE to charge these crimes fully and consistently, 'nother thread, tho.)

But back to your highly specific example: the right paceline should move across the line if the space is there, is known to continue uninterrupted, and is clear of debris. But they should continue two abreast, especially in larger groups, and not try to reconfigure the group unnecessarily. Two up is the norm all over, by law in all states, and the sensible thing to do. But even if they don't move as far right as you'd like, it's really a minor thing compared to the daily mayhem and other much more dangerous crap created by motorists, isn't it? And by "minor," I mean really, really, really vanishingly tiny.

The day that cyclists create more than a negligible problem compared to their motorized counterparts will be a great day. So far, we're not close to that.
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