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Old 11-27-2012, 09:03 AM   #26191
Gummee!
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This is your brain on exercise

M
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:04 AM   #26192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurelius View Post
What an excellent suggestion! I'll be sure to do that the next time I'm out riding.
Knock yourself out.

...but if you wanna race, race.

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Old 11-27-2012, 09:24 AM   #26193
Aurelius
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gummee! View Post
Knock yourself out.

...but if you wanna race, race.

M
I am racing, dude. Made it to #10 on the Strava leader board!

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Old 11-27-2012, 09:58 AM   #26194
Stinez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gummee! View Post
Cause (done right) you can go farther faster with a group than you can solo. Carrots in front of you, etc.

Without something to compare to, why's it matter? Sure you can be fast, but why? Why are you trying to be fast?

...and what are you trying to measure? Max power? TT times? Max speed in a sprint? Max uphill speed?

Which loops us back to 'why?' You tryin to beat someone up the hill? Hang with the fast guys? Finish the rando in X hours?

M

I certainly agree that you can go further faster with a group but I also see that as a product of the shared drag/resistance help that a group offers.

However, going further and faster isn't my actual goal.

My goal is to improve my performance over time.
Perhaps that's why I ride a cross bike and I don't mind the resistance a solo ride offers.

My point is simply that there are many ways to ride and progress and that group rides aren't the only way.
I also enjoy the knowledge that I can just go when I'm ready and that I don't have to coordinate with anyone to get a street ride in.
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Stinez screwed with this post 11-27-2012 at 10:08 AM
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:00 AM   #26195
Gummee!
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My point is simply that there are many ways to ride and progress and that group rides aren't the only way.
I agree. In fact, the guys that ONLY do the group rides aren't getting all they could either.

You'll have to define 'improve my performance over time.' I'm

M
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:25 AM   #26196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gummee! View Post
I agree. In fact, the guys that ONLY do the group rides aren't getting all they could either.

You'll have to define 'improve my performance over time.' I'm

M
I'll take a stab at it. I think the reason that you're getting resistance is because you asserted -

Quote:
Constantly chasing higher and higher average speeds is a bad way to train
When perhaps a better way to say it would be 'Constantly chasing higher & higher average speeds isn't the best way to train for the type of racing I do'. Chasing averages is perfectly fine - it's just not the best for a given application. I get good results from using averages - I have a large amount of data over an 18 mile course that I have worked for almost a year now. Given enough sampling data, I can eliminate variables such as stoplights*, headwinds, etc, and narrow down the variables to things I can control. Works for me.

For the races I run and the level I'm at, this gives me results that don't require thousands of dollars in equipment or require me to coordinate with someone else's schedule.

Likewise, for a given training environment, Strava is perfectly fine.

Every time we have this fight, it's because one group touts its racing & training methodology over another - when it's comparing apples to oranges. We train to perform in different circumstances. This makes different methods useless for comparison.


* - If Gummee & I ever did ride together, his head would explode in 5 seconds. Because following the 'rules' in Baltimore will, absolutely will, get you killed. Besides - everybody knows tri-dorks have no manners.
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:42 AM   #26197
Stinez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gummee! View Post
I agree. In fact, the guys that ONLY do the group rides aren't getting all they could either.

You'll have to define 'improve my performance over time.' I'm

M
I use GPS tools to tell me my various speeds and times over the various routes I ride.

I try to do better over time with the knowledge that conditions like wind, traffic and slight adjustments in the route can influence the results.

It's not a perfect plan and the place I see the most improvement is on mountain bike rides where I can compare myself to some of the kids I'm often chasing.
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:44 AM   #26198
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I follow averages as well, because over time they are far from meaningless.

In my case, I do not race actual races. I ride my MTB for exercise and fun. On the exercise front, if (over time) my heart rate stays at the same rate, but I am finishing the same course faster (faster average rate) then my body is getting stronger. Less heart beats and less oxygen demand for the same amount of work. Or conversely, if I finish the same course in the same time but my heart rate is lower, then again my body has become more efficient, and hence "stronger". That is the as good as any way I know to measure "getting in shape".

Now, in the future will I start riding in local races, and therefore training in a particular way? Maybe, why not really? But I am not to the point where I even want to, so it is a moot point

All that said, with riding at night being new to me, and clipless pedals being new to me, finishing the course without a broken leg is the current goal
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:50 AM   #26199
Aurelius
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RxZ View Post
finishing the course without a broken leg is the current goal
It's a worthy goal.
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:52 AM   #26200
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Well the nice UPS man just delivered my new bicycle work stand. But since I only paid $50 for it, I won't be telling any of you snobs what it is.
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Dizave opined: Why do you care where the premises come from? They are above reproach. For all intents and purposes, you can just make up all your premises, since they can't be proven anyway. That's why we need premises.
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:54 AM   #26201
k7
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use a coach

If my goal was to be competitive in a racing environment, I think the services of a coach would be money well-spent. Someone like Jim Verhaul who regularly exceeds 400+ miles in a 24-hour event and has coached riders at all levels and events.

Second best option would be the author that Gummee noted, Joe Friel and his book. I assume he meant The Power Meter Handbook. You can read an sample from it here.

Another resource is Training and Racing with a Power Meter.
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:03 AM   #26202
Stinez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RxZ View Post
I follow averages as well, because over time they are far from meaningless.

In my case, I do not race actual races. I ride my MTB for exercise and fun. On the exercise front, if (over time) my heart rate stays at the same rate, but I am finishing the same course faster (faster average rate) then my body is getting stronger. Less heart beats and less oxygen demand for the same amount of work. Or conversely, if I finish the same course in the same time but my heart rate is lower, then again my body has become more efficient, and hence "stronger". That is the as good as any way I know to measure "getting in shape".

Now, in the future will I start riding in local races, and therefore training in a particular way? Maybe, why not really? But I am not to the point where I even want to, so it is a moot point

All that said, with riding at night being new to me, and clipless pedals being new to me, finishing the course without a broken leg is the current goal
Are you using a heart rate monitor?

I have friends that use them and swear by them but I'm not sure that I want to embrace the distraction that they appear to be.
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:14 AM   #26203
RxZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinez View Post
Are you using a heart rate monitor?

I have friends that use them and swear by them but I'm not sure that I want to embrace the distraction that they appear to be.
Yes.

But you are right, huge distraction while trying to negotiate trees that oare only a couple of feet apart. I only look at it when I stop for water. For the most part, I can tell when my heart rate is too high or too low. I can not tell you an exact number, but I can get within about 10 BPM of actual. I try to stay in the 150's while riding. There are sections of the trails I will coast more, and the rate comes down, and big hills where I max out. But if over an hour of riding my rate comes out in the 150's, then I know I got a good aerobic workout

It all comes back to what Gummee said earlier: people tend to train too fast on slow days, and too slow on fast days. The only way to know for sure is by heart rate.
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:15 AM   #26204
RxZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurelius View Post
It's a worthy goal.
I was thinking of you on that one liner

I am glad you are pretty much better though!
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:17 AM   #26205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinez View Post
Are you using a heart rate monitor?

I have friends that use them and swear by them but I'm not sure that I want to embrace the distraction that they appear to be.
I've got a buddy that was club riding for a while and just started racing and he swears by it. My Garmin's strap was usually in my closet, but he convinced me to start wearing it and paying attention. It's sort of like cadence. Once you know what 90rpm feels like you don't need to check the computer display to know you're at 85 or 95. You can feel it.

I found it's similar with HR. Once I could associate how I feel with my HR number, I didn't need to pay any attention to it other than an occasional glance.

115-120bpm I'm cruising with my wife. 135bpm I'm cruising solo. 150bpm I'm chasing a faster buddy or climbing. 175bpm I'm going to die after I finish throwing up.

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