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Old 02-01-2013, 05:47 PM   #27211
Mr Head
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Aluminum is about a third the stiffness of steel given the same section. And it weighs about a third as much as steel.

What that means is basically you need about the same weight of aluminum to get the stiffness of steel.

The proof in the final assembly is testing the, both. Weighing them only gives you a peak that maybe one is not as stiff as you may think.

Another property of aluminum is fatigue strength. It doesn't have much until you make the leap into the 70-series. Welding metals makes for all sorts of assumptions of what is going on.

Those old bonded aluminum French frames felt pretty whippy to my old racers legs back in the day. I stayed away.

The Cannondales are/were large diameter and said to be post-weld heat treated. They sure were stiff.

I think it was Lehigh or Pitt that built a bicycle torture rack that would flex the BB side to side to evaluate fatigue and try to correlate the analysis with this testing. As I recall it worked pretty well. This back before we had fancy NASTRAN to mesh structures.

It took me a long, long time to become comfortable enough with the manufacturing techniques and materials to break loose the money for a CF framed bike.
I love it as a road machine. It is comfortable yet a little stiff of ride. No perceptible sway when climbing, and light. My old steel hand made Italian steed feels like a sled in comparison and a wobbling, flexiflyer at that.
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Old 02-01-2013, 06:16 PM   #27212
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I remember Grove! Mostly for that bar/stem combo. Never saw one in the flesh but those down tubes remind of the these -





You bastid! Rhygins were/are on my bucket list of bikes to own (along with the original WTB Phoenix, an original Yo Eddy with the "Big 1 inch" fork, and a Sycip with those mitered stays). At the time those bikes were available, I was too damn poor to buy one.
I LOVE EWR's, they made some sweet trials bikes also.

They are back by the way.

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Old 02-01-2013, 06:28 PM   #27213
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Here's a pic of my Rhygin. I've posted it a few times, but some of the pics are x's now...
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Old 02-02-2013, 08:06 AM   #27214
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The risk benefit analysis doesn't quite add up for me.


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Old 02-02-2013, 08:08 AM   #27215
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Women's cross worlds on now

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Old 02-02-2013, 09:43 AM   #27216
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the Vitus/Alan frames were the small tube outer diameter that was standard at the time; i always wondered what they'd feel like if they would have used larger diameter tubes of the same material weight. they did seem to be pretty popular with the Paris-Roubaix guys, and others that valued comfort over efficiency.

never heard that the Cannondales were post-weld heat-treated, but since they were basically copies of what Gary Klein originated, i suppose it's possible. (aside from the fact that i didn't like a marketing company that started out blatantly making what looked like copies of someone elses stuff, i saw far too many Cannondales fail to ever want to try one.)
Klein was building out of 6061 that was T6 heat-treated post welding, and i remember him telling me about some of the experiences that went into figuring out how to get frames out of the heat-treating oven that were still straight. made for a stiff, light frame, and the fact that there are still so many around is a testament to how overbuilt even those early frames were. (i have a semi-custom Klein that i built thinking it was going to be a 'disposable' performance tool. it suffered through my learning Trials as well as lots of really stupid trail time, and it's still cruising along nicely.)

as for CF; it's changed a lot since i took the risk on a semi-custom Kestrel (back when they were made locally), but that bike is also still plying the trails. also bought with the idea that it was going to be disposable,... it's proven to be anything but so far (and although i'm fairly smooth, i'm no featherweight).

the old Columbus SP Pinarello of mine had a beautiful feel to it; stable, compliant, a springiness that felt like whatever it gave up on a power stroke could be gotten back further along in the stroke,... the modern Dedacciai 'Lees-than-Zero' steel Land Shark with its thin walls and shaped tubes that i've got now is better in all ways (but has a different geometry that's a little more aggressive and not as 'disappearing' underneath you). i tried a few different brands of CF forks on the Shark until i ended up settling back with the one that the builder had recommended originally, and found a big difference in the way they made the bike handle surface irregularities.

i often wonder what the Land Shark would feel like if i'd had it built with the same materials, but with the exact geometry of the Pinarello,...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Head View Post
Those old bonded aluminum French frames felt pretty whippy to my old racers legs back in the day. I stayed away.

The Cannondales are/were large diameter and said to be post-weld heat treated. They sure were stiff.

{snip}

It took me a long, long time to become comfortable enough with the manufacturing techniques and materials to break loose the money for a CF framed bike.
I love it as a road machine. It is comfortable yet a little stiff of ride. No perceptible sway when climbing, and light. My old steel hand made Italian steed feels like a sled in comparison and a wobbling, flexiflyer at that.
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:05 PM   #27217
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Now that was quite the race!

If you didn't see it live, I'm sure it'll be uploaded somewhere.

Me? I went and did 2.5hrs zone 1-2 in upper 20s on the Crosshairs with 28c Gatorskins on. I have GOT to get my saddle position the same between that bike and the FTB ASAP!

M
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Old 02-02-2013, 05:17 PM   #27218
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And FWIW, steel is always going to be a winner in my book, especially Tange Prestige and OX Platinum.
True. I love my Tange Soma Juice 29er. Will never sell it. Just picked up a 1st gen Vassago Bandersnatch as a new, leftover that I'm going to build up as a geared 29er.
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:03 PM   #27219
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I was confused they aluminum frame I had experience with is the Klien. There is only one reason to build a bicycle freame from 6061; it's easy to weld. Then heat treating it to T6 does nothing for it's fatigue. In fact 6061 has none to speak of. That's why it is not used anywhere that may be an issue. We fly mostly 7075, and a few other high buck blends.
There was a womens team that had Specialized Allez, that were aluminum. THey liked them a lot. I rode one, and it felt better than the Elan, but by then my heart had been stolen forever by that ugly Italian supermodel; Pinarello.
A friend bought an Allez on sale. He liked it and I bet he still has it.
The Elan I rode was spongy and it was a small from on my and I was light back then. My first Italian bike experience was on a 531 Reynolds I think. Maybe that was English though? It has been a while. My Ciocc was stiff and hard as a board. The super short wheelbase, steep head angle and 54CM frame would bring me to tears with my carpol tunnel wrists on washboard or gravel. I was almost glad when my wife drove the car into the garage with it on the roof. Mashed the bike, destroyed the rack. The "Honeybadger" of a beater Toyota Corona estate car didn't car. Not a scratch. Broke the wooden garage door as well.
When I slipped aboard the new Pinarello I was in heaven. That thing was/is a 57cm couch. LIke butter over the rough roads cross Colorado. Climbed like a rocket too. Stable up to any speed I could get to.
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Old 02-02-2013, 09:54 PM   #27220
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We fly mostly 7075, and a few other high buck blends.[/snip]
The problem with 7000 series aluminum is that it gets very brittle very quick. Back when I was heavily into racing, my race bikes were always made out of 7000 series aluminum (Easton Elite) because at the level I was racing at, those 2 extra pounds in frame weight (vs steel) was crucial especially on the climbs.
The ONLY aluminum frame I ever loved was my Spooky Darkside and I broke one just about every 6 months. I'm probably one of the reasons why they went out business (the 1st time). I've had 5 of them and they're all dead. My last one I stopped riding because I wanted to preserve it for prosperity but guess what I found at the headtube/toptube junction...



One of these days I'm going to have a custom builder duplicate the frame geometry in steel.


Quote:
My first Italian bike experience was on a 531 Reynolds I think.
I've had carbon bikes, I've had titanium bikes, but the one that I always come back to...



The chrome lugs and stays are a real attention getter nowadays!
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Old 02-02-2013, 09:57 PM   #27221
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Interesting. . . . I have an older klein quantum (1992-ish), and I think it rides quite nice. It's much more comfortable than the aluminum Trek that I had. I'm sure the carbon fork on the klein helps, and tire choice makes a big difference, but I think it's quite a nice bike.
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Old 02-03-2013, 07:10 AM   #27222
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Holy contrasts!
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Old 02-03-2013, 08:20 AM   #27223
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A good friend and riding buddy has several Nago's. Including a pursuit funny bike for TT's with Campy CF discs. He also has a few Master's. Those things are rolling art.
We did some climbing back in the day. Mt Evans, Lots of Peak to Peak, and Rocky Mountain National Park.

That head tube has two stress risers working against the design. Welding changes the alloy in not all that predictable ways. We end up relying on statistics in the analysis.

I used to blow up a pair of skis from Head every weekend. After a couple of seasons Head decided to give me one last pair and told me to go away. So I bought Rossignols. Then only broke once.

We like to design joints to be only loaded in pure shear. No bending loads. In practice that doesn't happen much. Look at the head joint that has combined loading working against it along with fatigue in bending. Very little shear in that joint.
One of the reasons for going to the larger diameter steering tube is to combat this loading at the joint where the steering tube meets the fork. That larger tube forces a larger diameter frame to match this helps at the head tube joints at the top tube and down tube.

Makes me wonder what an Aluminum frame from say a 1997 CBR900RR with a half million miles on it would look like.

Or that Chromed frame BMW built for the 450 they had.
I wonder what something like that looks like after a few seasons.

I think brased, lugged steel is still the best value/performance/weight/endurance material and build technique available.
In thirty years I wonder how my CF frame will feel. I'd sure like to be in condition to test it then.
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Old 02-03-2013, 09:36 AM   #27224
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thanks gummee

for the uci link .

watched a bunch including whole elite mens race. Feed was awesome as was the racing !

Great race for Katie Compton.



got 1 1/2 hr in with friend late afternoon
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Old 02-03-2013, 10:17 AM   #27225
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Nope, not me. watching scared me.

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The risk benefit analysis doesn't quite add up for me.


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