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Old 04-17-2013, 02:28 PM   #28261
k7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zouch View Post

as for 'bents? i don't care what they look like or who's riding them. as low as they are relative to traffic, i'm afraid i'd be sucking the underside of a bumper in less than a week due to not being able to see or be seen.


cheers!
If one can see road stripes w/o difficulties, I'm not sure why one can't see a fairly large m(ass) on two or three wheels. My high racer is about the same size as a small rider in an aero-tuck kind of position.
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Old 04-17-2013, 08:08 PM   #28262
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sorry, not buying it.
i ride up next to all kinds of bikes/'bents here in Berkeley on the Bike Boulevards; to be fair, it's probably partly because i'm a GS kinda' build (read: riding 60c+ frames), but not one of those riders has their eyes or helmet anywhere near as high as mine are on a conventional bike. and it's pretty obvious from within any car how much less visible a lower bike/'bent is.

(i don't even want to know why anyone would think a butt is the highest thing, or where you see from, let alone a red flag.)

as for what our fellow motorists can't see but should, does any bicyclist/motorcyclist who shares public roads really need to go there?


cheers!


Quote:
Originally Posted by pierce View Post
actually, with the head up and back position, its EASIER to see behind you etc than on a bent over road bike.

they aren't actually /that/ much lower than a road bike, although your butt isn't up in the air like a red flag.
Quote:
Originally Posted by k7 View Post
If one can see road stripes w/o difficulties, I'm not sure why one can't see a fairly large m(ass) on two or three wheels. My high racer is about the same size as a small rider in an aero-tuck kind of position.
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Old 04-17-2013, 09:26 PM   #28263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zouch View Post
sorry, not buying it.
i ride up next to all kinds of bikes/'bents here in Berkeley on the Bike Boulevards; to be fair, it's probably partly because i'm a GS kinda' build (read: riding 60c+ frames), but not one of those riders has their eyes or helmet anywhere near as high as mine are on a conventional bike. and it's pretty obvious from within any car how much less visible a lower bike/'bent is.


as for what our fellow motorists can't see but should, does any bicyclist/motorcyclist who shares public roads really need to go there?


cheers!
Well, you're the one putting forth the argument saying you can't see a recumbent.

There are limits - I agree. Certain low recumbents make me uncomfortable but I can certainly see them. In stopped traffic, I can see how you'd lose sight of one but then again, you're supposed to be in control of your vehicle. Hit one and you know the ending - lawsuit city.

Maybe you can make out the two here - I rode a 60-cm when I was on DF and my buddy is only about an inch shorter than me. I'm guessing he was in the 58 range. I'm not small by any means. If the rider in front of me goes into a tuck, we present roughly the same cross-section in terms of visibility to anyone behind us.

This, for what it's worth, was about a 255 mile day for us. Everyone managed to see us and we had relatively few problems that day. I do get aggravated at riders who don't know how to take the lane. These guys kept insisting that I take the lead but gotdammit, they weren't willing to take the lane when necessary to add even more visibility.

It's like lane-positioning on a motorcycle - we all know you can move yourself around in the lane to increase your visibility.



Here's another picture. Damn hard to see the three recumbents up front but impossible to miss the guys that were behind us. Dana Lieberman, who raced on RAAM a few years ago can take the front and maintain 23 mph all day. He claims to only need about 110-120 watts for that kind of effort on his Carbent recumbent. That's phenomenal. I'm at about 130 watts for 22.5 on most days...drafting.

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k7 screwed with this post 04-17-2013 at 09:49 PM
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Old 04-17-2013, 10:03 PM   #28264
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you're extrapolating my point beyond what i actually said, but thanks for the pics that illustrate it so beautifully.

you can't argue that the higher something is, the more likely it is to be visible in traffic. the highest helmet on the 'bents in those pics isn't as high as the shoulder of the riders on standards.
if you won't believe your own eyes, look at the physics; that very same smaller profile that makes 'bents faster by reducing their profile to the wind must also present a smaller visible profile to be seen. lawsuit or not; doesn't make you any less dead.

put cars in the pic, and the rider on a standard is going to be the one most visible, the least likely to be obscured, and the most likely to be able to see.

i'm not one to be telling anyone else what to do (especially on a motorcycling forum!), but you can't justify 'bents as being as safe in the visibility department. you're simply kidding yourself if you think you can see or be seen as well on a 'bent as on a standard.


there are several other reasons i'm not interested in 'bents (poor climbing, unable to suspend yourself through bumps), but this illustrates well the biggest reason i wouldn't want to ride one in traffic.


cheers!


Quote:
Originally Posted by k7 View Post
Well, you're the one putting forth the argument saying you can't see a recumbent.

There are limits - I agree. Certain low recumbents make me uncomfortable but I can certainly see them. In stopped traffic, I can see how you'd lose sight of one but then again, you're supposed to be in control of your vehicle. Hit one and you know the ending - lawsuit city.

Maybe you can make out the two here - I rode a 60-cm when I was on DF and my buddy is only about an inch shorter than me. I'm guessing he was in the 58 range. I'm not small by any means. If the rider in front of me goes into a tuck, we present roughly the same cross-section in terms of visibility to anyone behind us.

This, for what it's worth, was about a 255 mile day for us. Everyone managed to see us and we had relatively few problems that day. I do get aggravated at riders who don't know how to take the lane. These guys kept insisting that I take the lead but gotdammit, they weren't willing to take the lane when necessary to add even more visibility.

It's like lane-positioning on a motorcycle - we all know you can move yourself around in the lane to increase your visibility.

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Old 04-17-2013, 10:06 PM   #28265
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I'll go on record saying 'recumbents are fun to ride, but they're not for me at this time in my life.'

I'm trying real hard to lose the aerobelly and can't for the life of me grow a beard. Looks like I'm doomed to ride a diamond frame bike.

M
I can't grow a proper beard, either. When time comes to go 'bent, I'm gonna get the most awesome helmet mirror I can find and start wearing cotton t-shirts with my bibs.
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Old 04-17-2013, 11:22 PM   #28266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zouch View Post
you're extrapolating my point beyond what i actually said, but thanks for the pics that illustrate it so beautifully.

you can't argue that the higher something is, the more likely it is to be visible in traffic. the highest helmet on the 'bents in those pics isn't as high as the shoulder of the riders on standards.
if you won't believe your own eyes, look at the physics; that very same smaller profile that makes 'bents faster by reducing their profile to the wind must also present a smaller visible profile to be seen. lawsuit or not; doesn't make you any less dead.

put cars in the pic, and the rider on a standard is going to be the one most visible, the least likely to be obscured, and the most likely to be able to see.

i'm not one to be telling anyone else what to do (especially on a motorcycling forum!), but you can't justify 'bents as being as safe in the visibility department. you're simply kidding yourself if you think you can see or be seen as well on a 'bent as on a standard.


there are several other reasons i'm not interested in 'bents (poor climbing, unable to suspend yourself through bumps), but this illustrates well the biggest reason i wouldn't want to ride one in traffic.


cheers!
Actually, I compared myself to a smaller rider. We may be saying the same thing but i still put the onus on drivers to be aware of others on the road while taking every reasonable precaution available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by k7 View Post
If one can see road stripes w/o difficulties, I'm not sure why one can't see a fairly large m(ass) on two or three wheels. My high racer is about the same size as a small rider in an aero-tuck kind of position.

If anything, I suppose I'm a reluctant recumbent rider. I still lust after all the carbon bikes like anyone else who rides and wants to go fast. A blue hair in a Caddy messed up my neck in '94. It took a recumbent to get me back into riding and I'm thankful for the opportunity. I rode only a couple of double centuries on my Mercian-framed bike years ago and they werent fun. I can't imagine doing the miles I do now on a DF. Lots of riders do but their recovery is longer than mine.

There are other factors you may not have given any weight. My visibility is more IMAX than that of a DF rider. I've never heard of a recumbent rider impacted by Shermer's Neck. I've also never seen a recumbent go over the handlebars either. I also don't have to worry about neck, shoulders, arms, hand/wrist issues or perineal nerve issues. I don't recall a single brevet where I didn't hear a DF rider complaining about some issue they were having. Pick any item from above....even veteran riders complain.

Even with all that, there are times when I'd kill to be on a DF. I can't so I embrace what does allow me to ride and luckily, I've have a fair amount of luck and can now manage 250 miles in 18 hours +/- without too much "hurt". If it's a multil day event, while the miles dont go down, I'll take more time for the same distance.

Who knows, I may attempt some ultra distance events in the next few years. The most successful can do just over 500 miles in a day. Drafting, without serious training, I think i can do 350. If I get serious, 400 is with reach. 500 miles? In a day? NFW.

If you're ever in PHX, let me know. I'll be more than happy let you ride my Bacchetta Carbon Aero. I'm 6'2" but you'll be a close fit if you ride a 60 cm today.
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Old 04-18-2013, 01:48 AM   #28267
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I too was concerned about visibility to drivers when I first got my 'bent. My experience so far has been that drivers actually give me a wider berth and tend to be looking and pointing and smiling. I believe that 'bents are novel enough around here that they stand out. On my DF I just live with the close passes and asshats with souped up diesels smoggin' for skeeters
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Old 04-18-2013, 04:56 AM   #28268
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spitting hairs here, if the ignorant ass in the car doesn't see you on a recumbent, he's not gonna see you whatever your on, he's oblivious to the world, and would mow you over if you were on a Goldwing wearing flashing neon outfits with flags waving all over the place.
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Old 04-18-2013, 05:50 AM   #28269
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Originally Posted by k7 View Post
That's a pretty tall recumbent. The three wheeled variety I see around here place the rider's butt just inches above the ground. You also have to keep in mind that the main advantage of having your eyes as high as possible isn't that drivers will be able to see you, but that you'll be able to see over tops of the cars around you to avoid potential danger.
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Old 04-18-2013, 07:30 AM   #28270
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that road is a good example of some of the reasons i choose to live here.
kinda' like Patron is to tequilas, Page Mill Road's not the best by a far cry, but a good stable benchmark, and nice to have in the backyard.


The bottom of Moody is maybe 5 miles from my front door, and roads like that were high on my list of reasons to relocate here. Good times.
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Old 04-18-2013, 09:32 AM   #28271
k7
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Originally Posted by bikerfish View Post
spitting hairs here, if the ignorant ass in the car doesn't see you on a recumbent, he's not gonna see you whatever your on, he's oblivious to the world, and would mow you over if you were on a Goldwing wearing flashing neon outfits with flags waving all over the place.


We had a car hit a school bus here last week. A freakin' school bus. What chance does a cyclist or motorcyclist have these days?
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Old 04-18-2013, 09:38 AM   #28272
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Cars hit trains too. And if they survive the driver usually says they didn't see it.


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We had a car hit a school bus here last week. A freakin' school bus. What chance does a cyclist or motorcyclist have these days?
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Old 04-18-2013, 12:33 PM   #28273
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Cars hit trains too. And if they survive the driver usually says they didn't see it.
I've had buddies that were driving fire trucks say that regardless of lights, sirens, etc cars don't see them either.



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Old 04-18-2013, 12:41 PM   #28274
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wtf?!

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Old 04-18-2013, 12:48 PM   #28275
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I have a second cousin who was a fireman and the truck he was driving head-oned a car as they both turned a corner for a fire.
The car was a cop car.

Driven by his brother.

Small town...


Fire turned out was a small grease fire on a stove and was out before they got there.

Fireman was on the back of the hook and ladder truck went over the truck, bounced off the car, broke a hip and ribs.
Policeman broke stuff on the car, pre-airbags, late fifties.
Walked a beat checking meters for a couple of years.

I have been grazed by big trucks, cars, and motorcycles.
Pushed off the road once by a lowboy with a huge cat on it and the blade overhanging about 6 feet probably less. I took to the ditch and didn't fall or hit cactus. (Old Morrison Road in Colorado).
No cars coming the other way or they would have been in the other ditch. I called the cops when I got home about a mile and a half later. Noting was done.
Heck I had two OC sherrifs on BMW RTP's nearly run me off the bike path along the river a year or so ago. They were riding side by side up the path at about 30 and I was headed inland at about 18.
Yes, I swore at them and yelled. They didn't stop.
I considered calling it in, and just gave up.
I'd rather have them there as we get a few bandits along parts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gummee! View Post
I've had buddies that were driving fire trucks say that regardless of lights, sirens, etc cars don't see them either.



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