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Old 04-17-2009, 11:02 PM   #1456
iammemares
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Joined: Apr 2009
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Thanks for the feedback on the cannister and such. I will search for Garys write up on the SMR removal.

Re the HSC, I appreciate the description. I understand very clearly what HSC is. What I am trying to find out is this. The issue you are concerned about does not seem to effect everyone, so for those that it does, it is likely something in their set up, weight, riding style or roads. What bike speed and what type of inputs are we taking about. I understand they will likely be more of a square edged or sharp input. Big or small displacement and what sort of effect does it have on the bike. I am sure this has been tried, but reducing oil viscosity and then recovering lost control in the low speed with the adjuster may have a small effect.

I am 175 in gear and will ride almost entirely for sport, though certainly not track hard on the street. I like a controlled feel and small brake dive. on a SMR What sort of base setting out of the manual would be a good starting point?

Thanks, Mark
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Old 04-18-2009, 04:16 AM   #1457
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Garry's Guide

http://home.comcast.net/~garrysimmon...er-Removal.htm

I just picked up a new 2007 SMR.
No pix yet, it's sitting in a friends garage until I can get someone to drive me down to get it.
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Old 04-18-2009, 04:41 AM   #1458
aeronaut
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iammemares
Thanks for the feedback on the cannister and such. I will search for Garys write up on the SMR removal.

Re the HSC, I appreciate the description. I understand very clearly what HSC is. What I am trying to find out is this. The issue you are concerned about does not seem to effect everyone, so for those that it does, it is likely something in their set up, weight, riding style or roads. What bike speed and what type of inputs are we taking about. I understand they will likely be more of a square edged or sharp input. Big or small displacement and what sort of effect does it have on the bike. I am sure this has been tried, but reducing oil viscosity and then recovering lost control in the low speed with the adjuster may have a small effect.

I am 175 in gear and will ride almost entirely for sport, though certainly not track hard on the street. I like a controlled feel and small brake dive. on a SMR What sort of base setting out of the manual would be a good starting point?

Thanks, Mark
I believe it was Paul Thede that coined the phrase "The best you've ridden is the best you know."

On my bike, my weight, my style, etc...the excessive HSC damping in the forks caused severe bump steer in turns. Most noticeable in turns faster than about 50mph and at moderate to high lean angles. A sharp edge/bump would cause the front tire (and handlebars) to turn sharply and suddenly and lose contact with the road, rather than follow the edge of the bump. Imagine what a solid suspension might do, and that's pretty much what mine did. Absolutely terrible. In the city, sharp bumps, pot hole edges, etc, transferred directly to the handlebars rather than being absorbed by the forks. Reading the dirt bike forums, it seems that WP forks are known for having too much HSC damping. I own bikes and have ridden bikes that have excellent suspension, so for me, there were NO settings on the stock forks that could hide this problem.

I considered putting thinner oil in the stock shocks, but this has never worked for me (well enough) on other bikes, so I went straight for the re-valve.

aeronaut screwed with this post 04-18-2009 at 04:51 AM
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Old 04-18-2009, 07:36 AM   #1459
nattyMo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoSteve
Pics?
I'm on vacation at the moment and don't have any pics on the laptop I'm using. Once I'm back home I'll post some up pronto. Should be back Tuesday if all goes well.
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Old 04-18-2009, 12:22 PM   #1460
iammemares
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OK. Now I can picture the issue with the front forks. Sometimes running the low speed to open, or in the case of the forks, maybe having the adjuster dialed out to soften the hit might actually make the shock for the event you are describing worse. I don't know the piston speeds on forks, but it has to be relatively similar to cars that have a near 1to1 ratio. So lets say a brake dive event would be considered a slow compression event, probably somewhere around .1~.3 meter / sec of fork velocity. A pot hole or sharp edged bump of a displacement of 20 mm or so hit at 60 mph might have a fork velocity of well over 1 meter / sec. this is usually what is considered HSC. If you remove all the low speed compression in an effort to improve the bump steer or shock from the high speed event, when you hit a larger high speed event, the fork will blow through the low speed control without bleeding any energy and then slam into the high speed control abruptly. Of course there is a balance to this, my only point is that if the problem is truly in the HS circuit and the adjuster is controlling mainly the low - mid speed circuit, removing all you low speed control could make the problem you mention worse. The sooner you start to bleed energy and slow the fork down (low speed circuit) the less energy you carry into the high speed circuit. The balance and progressivity of the compression stroke is very important to making it feel smooth. So theoretically, thinning out the oil, which will reduce the total damping force that can be generated and then increasing the low speed control significantly might yeild an improved result. This is not to say that indeed the valves might need to be redone, just a less expensive alternative. I have been trying to take Paul Thede's Fluid Dynaimcs course for a while, but my company wont pay for it because it is motorcycle based. Rather narrow minded me thinks. Anyways, if when I get my SMR, I find the same issue, this is likely the first countermeasure I will try. Of course I will post my findings.

Thoughts from those that have tried to work with this concern. Does this fork concern seem as noticeable on the SMR?
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Old 04-18-2009, 03:16 PM   #1461
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Damn. LOL! Boy do I feel like an idiot!
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Old 04-18-2009, 04:45 PM   #1462
aeronaut
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iammemares
OK. Now I can picture the issue with the front forks. Sometimes running the low speed to open, or in the case of the forks, maybe having the adjuster dialed out to soften the hit might actually make the shock for the event you are describing worse. I don't know the piston speeds on forks, but it has to be relatively similar to cars that have a near 1to1 ratio. So lets say a brake dive event would be considered a slow compression event, probably somewhere around .1~.3 meter / sec of fork velocity. A pot hole or sharp edged bump of a displacement of 20 mm or so hit at 60 mph might have a fork velocity of well over 1 meter / sec. this is usually what is considered HSC. If you remove all the low speed compression in an effort to improve the bump steer or shock from the high speed event, when you hit a larger high speed event, the fork will blow through the low speed control without bleeding any energy and then slam into the high speed control abruptly. Of course there is a balance to this, my only point is that if the problem is truly in the HS circuit and the adjuster is controlling mainly the low - mid speed circuit, removing all you low speed control could make the problem you mention worse. The sooner you start to bleed energy and slow the fork down (low speed circuit) the less energy you carry into the high speed circuit. The balance and progressivity of the compression stroke is very important to making it feel smooth. So theoretically, thinning out the oil, which will reduce the total damping force that can be generated and then increasing the low speed control significantly might yeild an improved result. This is not to say that indeed the valves might need to be redone, just a less expensive alternative. I have been trying to take Paul Thede's Fluid Dynaimcs course for a while, but my company wont pay for it because it is motorcycle based. Rather narrow minded me thinks. Anyways, if when I get my SMR, I find the same issue, this is likely the first countermeasure I will try. Of course I will post my findings.

Thoughts from those that have tried to work with this concern. Does this fork concern seem as noticeable on the SMR?
Seems like a reasonable theory. I do know that 'high speed' and 'low speed' are gray areas, and all forks/shocks are different.

If you change to thinner oil, let us know how it works. FYI, you really can't go by the manufacturers 'weight' rating. I remember seeing someone doing some experiments, and Redline has some of the thinnest available. (EDIT: here we go, about 1/2 way down has a chart of fork oils. I've seen similar results elsewhere. http://www.pvdwiki.com/index.php?title=Suspension_Fluid)
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Old 04-19-2009, 05:29 AM   #1463
nattyMo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iammemares
Lastly, something I can not confirm. The current owner, who is far more knowledgeable than I about KTM stuff, says that the R motors have different cams. I also heard this from a KTM dealer. But I have found nothing in print to verify any changes to the engine in an R bike?? Any difference in the R engines??
The KTM parts listing shows the same cams for both the SM and SMR.
Intake = 60036009144
Exhaust = 60036110144

I've never had the SM and SMR cams side by side to measure and KTM parts listings haven't always proven to be correct but this is the best indication so far that the cams are the same in the SMR and SM. The Superduke R does have different cams to the Superduke and this may have been the source of confusion.

In looking over the parts list for each model the only differences I've seen hardware wise between the SM and SMR is that the SMR has stiffer fork springs, SE seat, tank, coolant tank and other misc. stuff related to fitting the SE tank. The other changes are all cosmetic or updates shared with the 07 SM. May have missed something so if you come across any other changes by all means please post up.

Hope this helps
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Old 04-19-2009, 06:39 AM   #1464
doctor_big
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Fuel Pump knackered?

The Austrian bitch quit on me yesterday. Luckily I was near a buddy's place, and he rescued me with his trailer. Still, it was a bad scene as my GF was waiting for me, with the promise of sex followed by a nice, aggressive street ride. I missed out on both of those. DAMN!

Anyway, I think it's the fuel pump, as I can no longer hear it clicking away when I turn the ignition on. It'll run for a couple secs after being off for a few minutes, but it dies right after that. Sounds like a few drops may be trickling in.

So, anyone out there replaced their fuel pump? The OC guys seem to recommend a Facet 4017 pump as a replacement. Does this hold or our bikes?

Jason
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Old 04-19-2009, 06:47 AM   #1465
Garry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doctor_big
The Austrian bitch quit on me yesterday. Luckily I was near a buddy's place, and he rescued me with his trailer. Still, it was a bad scene as my GF was waiting for me, with the promise of sex followed by a nice, aggressive street ride. I missed out on both of those. DAMN!

Anyway, I think it's the fuel pump, as I can no longer hear it clicking away when I turn the ignition on. It'll run for a couple secs after being off for a few minutes, but it dies right after that. Sounds like a few drops may be trickling in.

So, anyone out there replaced their fuel pump? The OC guys seem to recommend a Facet 4017 pump as a replacement. Does this hold or our bikes?

Jason
My fuel pump shit the bed in November while at the dealer for its 10K service. Bike was fine on the way up. Shop called and said the service was done, but its running rough. They wouldn't touch it, blaming it on my non-stock jetting. So I picked it up. Bike was running like crap (couldn't take any throttle beyond 1/8) without dying. Managed to limp a couple miles back to the dealer. They eventually figured out it was the fuel pump and it was replaced under warranty. Runs fine now.
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Old 04-19-2009, 07:29 AM   #1466
doctor_big
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry
They eventually figured out it was the fuel pump and it was replaced under warranty. Runs fine now.
Just discovered that the stocker is $136... That means it'll be well over $200 once the exchange rate and anal reaming are applied. The Facet is about $46. I need to find out which is the way to go on this....

Jason
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Old 04-19-2009, 10:20 AM   #1467
Chuckracer
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http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137838
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Old 04-19-2009, 10:50 AM   #1468
doctor_big
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckracer
Saw that. Not a lot of help, as it's mainly aimed at the Adventure bikes. Unfortunately I need a leetle bit of help with this issue, as I am right now awaiting a double hip replacement (scheduled for the fall, so wrenching is even more difficult than riding for me. I need pretty much a plug-and-play system... I most likely may end up just taking it in for a stock replacement.

Jason
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Old 04-19-2009, 01:56 PM   #1469
Chuckracer
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Sorry about that Doc. Any of the alternatives (Facet electric or Mikuni vacuum) are gonna require a fair bit of inventing to mount and plumb. If you need "plug and play", go with a stock replacement.

When mine goes, I'm doing the Mikuni vacuum option.
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Old 04-19-2009, 02:26 PM   #1470
iammemares
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Thank Guys

Thanks for the info and research on the SM vs SMR. I am actually not surprised at this, but am quite happy about the spring rate change.

Re the high speed and low speed being different?? Not so sure I understand this. The speed is determined by the rate at which the cartridge or piston moves in the fork. This is determined by the bike speed and bunp shape. So, typically, anything below .3 m/s is considered low speed, .3~9 is mid speed and anyhting above that is typically considered high speed. NOW, what is very different is the valve designs for each manufacture and how they deal with these input speed ranges.

My guess is that one of the better sus shops has damping curves over the entire speed range of the SM forks and knows exactly what needs to be done based on the shape and forces. The basic idea is to make the damping force curve more digresive in nature. Increase the low and mid speed forces and decrease the high speed forces. Digresive shape.

And yes I am aware that the fork oil viscosities are not so consistent nor do I know what the viscosity of the OE oil is. The is the tough part.

I am hopeful that I will be pleased with the suspesnion and not have to rework that.

Thanks all. These are just my .02 on the Fork issues and welcome opinions.
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