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Old 06-30-2010, 01:03 PM   #241
ziepan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ
Be sure you use the bear spray for the grizzly. The 10mm will only piss it off.
Reminds me of a story I read about a large grizzly that was killed in Alaska. When they skinned it they found a bunch of bullets smashed on the side of it's skull so they send them to a specialist and they turn out to be a rather rare pistol round (can't remember the size) and they were fired at point blank range so they went and asked the local gun smith about the bullets and he remembered ordering them for a guy that went missing the summer he got them.

So they speculate that the bear was killing the guy and he pulled out his hand gun stuck it to the side of the bears head and emptied it. Seems like it just made the bear mad.
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Old 06-30-2010, 01:49 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by ziepan

So they speculate that the bear was killing the guy and he pulled out his hand gun stuck it to the side of the bears head and emptied it. Seems like it just made the bear mad.
Here again; the bear is killing him already. Who gives a shit if the bear gets mad at that point.

I guess some folks can argue that pounding on the bear with your fists would be more productive. I still think that once you get to that point in your 'relationship' with the bear, 200 gr of hardcast 10mm at 1300 fps with 750 ft/lbs of pressure sure beats the crap out of nothing.

Would I intentionally go Grizzly hunting with it? Of course not. Would it make me feel a lot better to have that as opposed to nothing if the SHTF? You bet your ass it would!

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Old 06-30-2010, 04:23 PM   #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ziepan
Reminds me of a story I read about a large grizzly that was killed in Alaska. When they skinned it they found a bunch of bullets smashed on the side of it's skull so they send them to a specialist and they turn out to be a rather rare pistol round (can't remember the size) and they were fired at point blank range so they went and asked the local gun smith about the bullets and he remembered ordering them for a guy that went missing the summer he got them.

So they speculate that the bear was killing the guy and he pulled out his hand gun stuck it to the side of the bears head and emptied it. Seems like it just made the bear mad.
Note to self: buy armor piercing rounds.
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Old 06-30-2010, 05:36 PM   #244
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Not wise to Camp in Coyote country either.
Would a pistol help or hurt ?
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Old 06-30-2010, 05:37 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Birddodger
Not wise to Camp in Coyote country either.
Would a pistol help or hurt ?
You are afraid of a little doggie?


(if you take a pistol to a rifle fight you will generally lose)
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Old 06-30-2010, 05:40 PM   #246
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Oh gosh, I can't resist commenting now that it's gotten into guns and camping. A couple years ago there was a post from guys wanting to bike the Dempster and someone said he'd smuggle his handgun into Canada so he could 'at least scare the bear away by wounding it'. Ethics of shooting something you don't want to kill aside (and I'm not going to say what I think about someone like that), that revealed a lack of knowledge of bears and ballistics that was a bit sad.

Not to repeat the entire diatribe that I wrote then, but you're only going to wound the bear, and then you have a pissed off bear waiting for the next biker. And they're smart, they will remember it was a biker. If you're going to shoot, kill it. A handgun, with the possible exception of a .44 magnum at close range, isn't going to do that - and it's combat shooting, not at the range.

Listen up. 4,000 foot pounds of energy is considered about the minimum safe bear gun. I used to raft guide down the Tatshenshini River when it wasn't a park and we could bring shotguns (slugs). Sure, there was a time or two I felt better, but we were never bothered, even when a grizzly walked right through camp to show who was *boss of this river*.

Keep it clean, don't camp on top of a bear trail or near a food source. Bear spray really works. Tests indicate that sometimes black bears will return a few hours later to find out what happened, so if you use spray, move on. A post suggested that making yourself look big helped, and that's accurate. The bear sees you as a bigger danger, and they're always doing a cost/benefit analysis (unless they're teenagers). Hold something over your head to extend your body.

A gun can do much the same by giving you confidence, so your body language projects "bigger". But only a fool is going to get that confidence from a handgun.

Current thought if a bear actually contacts you, as opposed to a bluff charge, is fight like mad if it's a black bear (may want to eat you, be a difficult meal), play dead if it's a grizzly (just wants to eliminate a threat). Difference in the bears? In some places, black bear is the #2 meat item in a grizzlies diet. If you keep fighting a grizzly, it will keep trying to eliminate a threat. Oh, yes, bullets will bounce off a grizzly skull, see "need 4,000 ft pds".

Lest I be considered one of those anti-gun Canadians, I have rifles, pistols and shotguns. The difference between myself and the usual handgun toting fellow, is I know what each is capable of. The minimum I'd take into bear country - and I don't feel the need - is a 12 gauge or a .300 Win Mag. The 9mm is to shoot yourself.

Finally - there is about 1 bear for every 2 persons in the Yukon, yet we rarely see one. Right place and time, or you've done something stupid to attract one, and even then the chance of a charge is minimal. You're already taking an exponentially greater risk turning the key. If you're worried about bears, stay in a motel.
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Old 07-01-2010, 02:22 AM   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquadog
Lest I be considered one of those anti-gun Canadians, I have rifles, pistols and shotguns. The difference between myself and the usual handgun toting fellow, is I know what each is capable of. The minimum I'd take into bear country - and I don't feel the need - is a 12 gauge or a .300 Win Mag. The 9mm is to shoot yourself.
Out of interest, legalities aside, what'd be your take on using a sawn-off shotgun against a bear at close range? I'm thinking portability/reduced size & weight, ease of wielding (possibly one handed by the time you have to use it) and the stopping power of a shotgun could make it a very effective anti-bear weapon?
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Old 07-01-2010, 03:14 AM   #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceri JC
Out of interest, legalities aside, what'd be your take on using a sawn-off shotgun against a bear at close range? I'm thinking portability/reduced size & weight, ease of wielding (possibly one handed by the time you have to use it) and the stopping power of a shotgun could make it a very effective anti-bear weapon?
Nope. The short barrel doesn't develop the power you need. A regular pump 12 gauge and slugs will handle any land animal on earth, the largest bears, elephant, cape buffalo, hippo, rhino, etc. They are carried by wild life researchers in Africa and elsewhere for protection. They run about 3000 Ft lbs energy at short range.

A "proper" sawed off shotgun is a single shot or side by side. The magazine and mechanism of a repeater makes cutting the barrels very short impossible. You want one or two shots or 7?

Knowing a fair amount about bear psychology and habits and carrying bear spray will be more effective than any other weapon. They are bigger, faster, and infinitely tougher than any human. But they aren't smarter (necessarily).

One short barrel 12 Gauge is the Divers "bang stick" used on sharks. It may have no barrel. Sharks are turkeys and really don't like getting hurt. Wound one and they're gone.

Plaka screwed with this post 07-01-2010 at 03:31 AM
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Old 07-01-2010, 03:27 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by BgDadddy
Here again; the bear is killing him already. Who gives a shit if the bear gets mad at that point.

I guess some folks can argue that pounding on the bear with your fists would be more productive. I still think that once you get to that point in your 'relationship' with the bear, 200 gr of hardcast 10mm at 1300 fps with 750 ft/lbs of pressure sure beats the crap out of nothing.

Would I intentionally go Grizzly hunting with it? Of course not. Would it make me feel a lot better to have that as opposed to nothing if the SHTF? You bet your ass it would!
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Old 07-01-2010, 08:26 AM   #250
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Old 07-01-2010, 08:39 AM   #251
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It's certainly not a sure thing but grizzlys can be killed by a self-defense handgun. A recent example occurred in Denali NP where a hiker shot and killed a grizzly using 9 rounds of .45 ACP.

*edit* Oops...BgDadddy beat me to it.

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Old 07-01-2010, 08:45 AM   #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceri JC
Out of interest, legalities aside, what'd be your take on using a sawn-off shotgun against a bear at close range? I'm thinking portability/reduced size & weight, ease of wielding (possibly one handed by the time you have to use it) and the stopping power of a shotgun could make it a very effective anti-bear weapon?
I think the risk of having said illegal gun (outside of the State of MT) far out weighs the risk of an encounter with a bear.
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Old 07-01-2010, 08:46 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by IHWillys
It's certainly not a sure thing but grizzlys can be killed by a self-defense handgun. A recent example occurred in Denali NP where a hiker shot and killed a grizzly using 9 rounds of .45 ACP.

*edit* Oops...BgDadddy beat me to it.

Ken
Yeah, but it's really not worth the debate. I'm going to carry and some people will not approve. They are not going to carry and I don't really care.

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Old 07-01-2010, 08:49 AM   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IHWillys
It's certainly not a sure thing but grizzlys can be killed by a self-defense handgun. A recent example occurred in Denali NP where a hiker shot and killed a grizzly using 9 rounds of .45 ACP.

*edit* Oops...BgDadddy beat me to it.

Ken
Hinge word "Can" When I did wilderness treks in MT. I carried either a shotgun with 9 round of 70cal. slugs alternating with 00-buck or a 45-70 lever action trapper's rifle. I would NOT want to go up against a Griz with anything less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BgDadddy
Yeah, but it's really not worth the debate. I'm going to carry and some people will not approve. They are not going to carry and I don't really care.
Simple. Don't tell them. Also,, if you do any hiking while in Montana you should be more concerned with Mt. Lions than bears. A cat will hunt you from behind. If you are out alone and the hair stands up on the back of your neck... if the "something is wrong" feeling hits you... Turn around and get you 10mm out.
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Old 07-01-2010, 12:46 PM   #255
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It's not about approval. It's about what works. That and faulty risk assessment. If a handgun 99.9% of the time ISN'T going to work, well, you're carrying it for other reasons than bears. And that I'm concerned with, because I'm out there too.

Plaka is right about 12 gauges...
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