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Old 12-18-2006, 11:55 AM   #16
Luke OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kellyk7
I have self rerwound my stator, I left the ignition poles alone, and wound the other 10 poles with 32 wraps each of 16 ga wire, I also soldered to that a section of 14 ga wire to feed the system, and I purchased a TrailTech DC reg/rec.

my problem is this, I hook up the recifire and get 2.6 volts at idle which drops to 1.2 volts at 4k. Trailtech keeps saying it is my stator and they never see any regs fail. I have no DC shorts or opens in the system where they are not suposed to be. In other words my stator is floated, and is not grounded any place.

Also I can put my stock AC reg back in and it works fine, in fact I can run two 55 watt drive lights and one 65 watt head light at full brightness. I have not gotten a voltage level for the AC.

any thoughts would help.
My first thought is that if it works with the AC regulator that it's the regulator's fault, but here is another possibility. Do you have any sort of energy storage device on the DC side of the regulator? Either a battery or a big capacitor? The DC regulator won't work properly without one.
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Old 12-18-2006, 12:01 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Chili
Teacher, my brain is full. May I be excused? I have to go drain it.
We said the same thing in university......
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Old 12-18-2006, 12:38 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gadget Boy
I got lost half way through your article.. thanks for the effort!

So, why do some bikes have a stator and others have an alternator? On my GS, they could have gone with a stator where the belt pulley is instead of an alternator.. what gives?
Would you mind telling me where and how you got lost? Did some part just make no sense? Was it just a general 'my eyes glazed over'?

I'm not much of a writer and it's difficult material but I'd like as many people as possible to be able to understand it.


Regarding the GS, it's because of the motor layout. The stator would add an extra 3 inches or so to the length of the motor which would make the motor even longer than it is already. There's also the issue of where you'd put the points- a stator should be bathed in oil, the points and clutch shouldn't be. It would be really hard to attach the points (or hall sensor) to the clutch side of the motor.

Nowadays, the point problem is solved but the automotive stators can also put out a lot more power much more reliably (the regulators don't burn up)

On th other hand, regular bikes already have a flywheel sitting in oil, not doing anything else- so it's easy to put some magnets on it and bolt a coil next to it. No extra oil seals, no belts to break, etc.
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Old 12-18-2006, 01:06 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_sanchez
Uhh, anybody seen my Cheeze Whiz?

I'm all ears for the second installment.

A thousand thanks on behalf of all of us for the effort you put into this post.

Dirty
You're all welcome, it was fun to do and I figure I owe you guys for the lc4 oil change thread, your HID thread, the BMW hall sensor fix, etc, etc....

Um, I don't have a second installment... if you mean the LC4, that's mashed in the bottom of this one. I only have theory for that- I haven't hacked on mine yet.

I'd like to say a bit about how regulators work, but my first try at building one didn't work so well so I figure it should wait until I think I know what I'm talking about.
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Old 12-18-2006, 01:10 PM   #20
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Luke, My experience (30 years ago) was that dirt bike permanint magnet alternators acted like a constant current source in the voltages used. When you take one of the old 6V 35W systems that were just load regulated and add a 12 V shunt regulator you could get over 60 watts out. That is they were just 5.5 A current sources.
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Old 12-18-2006, 02:00 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EduardoMas
Thanks Luke.



So, if I was to do about 150 turns (will study the curves to prolly get more juice at low rpm) and use a heavier battery I would be better off. It is all statring to make sense now.

Just one more question. Should I stay with 18 Ga for the windings?

Thanks Luke!

Eduardo
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For 150 turns on 5 poles you should use 15 for OCV and 15 for SCC. Do you understand how I got these numbers? One other thing to note is that the Load Voltage is probably down around 13V for your AC side because there is no rectifier loss.

Is it possible to run the 90W light on DC and the two 55s on AC? That might work a little better- or at least the lights will all be equally bad :)

Regarding the wire gauge- the short answer is yes- go with 16 or 14 gauge. 12 ga. might be too thick to wind properly.

If you can, measure the resistance of the windings with an ohmmeter (motor off, winding disconnected from the load).Add 50% to that number (the resistance of copper goes up when it gets hot) Multiply that resistance by the load current to get a voltage. Add that voltage to the load voltage to see the change in output. The table on this page will show the relative resistance of each wire gauge- use it to figure out the difference different wire will make.

So for example, the stock stator uses 22ga wire and has a resistance of .6ohms. The load is 3 amps. .6ohms*150%*3amps = 2.7V. Changing to 18ga wire (with no other changes) will change the resistance of the coil to .6*6.385/16.14 or around .2 ohms, for a voltage drop of .9V. Take a look at what the change in output is if you change the load voltage by 1.8V
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Old 12-18-2006, 02:07 PM   #22
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Hey Meat... pin this sucker to the wall wouldja.

Luke is the new (I don't think there was an "old" to be honest) official...

Grand Poobah of Electrical Theory and Practice.


Now... somebody go to his house and put the official sticker on his forehead.
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Old 12-18-2006, 02:11 PM   #23
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What?
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Old 12-18-2006, 02:17 PM   #24
Luke OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Countdown
Luke, My experience (30 years ago) was that dirt bike permanint magnet alternators acted like a constant current source in the voltages used. When you take one of the old 6V 35W systems that were just load regulated and add a 12 V shunt regulator you could get over 60 watts out. That is they were just 5.5 A current sources.
Jerry
That actually agrees with this model. If you want to make the output as constant as possible over the full range of motor speeds put a lot of windings on it and it will act like a current source. For example, putting 600 turns on an XR stator will put 2.8-2.9amps into 6 volts over the full rpm range, or 2.5-2.8amps into 12volts.

In other words, if the open circuit voltage is really high the load is going to look like a short circuit to it whether it's 12 volts or 6 volts, and the stator wil deliver the short circuit current.

Luke screwed with this post 12-18-2006 at 02:28 PM
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Old 12-18-2006, 02:54 PM   #25
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I'm going to add the link below for anyone that would like to combine the above THEORETICAL information with the actual, low-tech, DIY rewinding of the hard parts... THEN you will have a pretty clear picture.

If you have snowy afternoon (It IS winter afterall) and a little wire with some epoxy - you can DIY for cheap. Since you need to take the time to pull the stator yourself and box it to ship out. You might as well just keep going... rewind it and put it back in the same day. Then plug in your 'lectric vest and do a night ride!!!!

http://www.planetklx.com/techtips/stator.shtml
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Old 12-18-2006, 03:47 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creeper
Hey Meat... pin this sucker to the wall wouldja.

Luke is the new (I don't think there was an "old" to be honest) official...

Grand Poobah of Electrical Theory and Practice.


Now... somebody go to his house and put the official sticker on his forehead.
I will put hiim in the lineup for the next update (and reorganization). We can have boejangles sticker the bloke - he's a friend of his.

Heya Luke! Long time since Mendocino
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Old 12-18-2006, 04:21 PM   #27
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Eh? Umm,,,Duh what did he say ?

Just kidding. Nice write up Luke.
It took me some time but I followed your lesson. Thanks
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Old 12-18-2006, 06:41 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke
My first thought is that if it works with the AC regulator that it's the regulator's fault, but here is another possibility. Do you have any sort of energy storage device on the DC side of the regulator? Either a battery or a big capacitor? The DC regulator won't work properly without one.
Itried it with one of those tiny batteries that I purchased from TrailTech and also two diferent starter caps I scavaged from some old AC motors. I don't remember for sure the rating, but it dawns on me one was a 30 mike , either way both were the size of d- cell batteries. the trail tech reg has a blue wire and a black wire, for ground, this Is to be able to isolate the battery from the regulator, I was told by the tech at trail tech to try it both ways, niether way did anything diferent.
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Old 12-18-2006, 09:13 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kellyk7
Itried it with one of those tiny batteries that I purchased from TrailTech and also two diferent starter caps I scavaged from some old AC motors. I don't remember for sure the rating, but it dawns on me one was a 30 mike , either way both were the size of d- cell batteries. the trail tech reg has a blue wire and a black wire, for ground, this Is to be able to isolate the battery from the regulator, I was told by the tech at trail tech to try it both ways, niether way did anything diferent.
Which ways are both ways? I don't know anything about the trailtech regulator. I assume it's supposed to be yellows->stator, red->battery+, black->battery- So are you supposed to connect the blue to battery- as well?



30 microfarads is way too small for a capacitor- 10000 microfarads is more like it. They are much lower voltage so they are a similar size, and are polarized, so you have to connect the + terminal to a positive voltage. They are usually called computer grade capacitors.



The kind of capacitor you need for this looks like the big blue one on top. Make sure that the maximum working voltage is 20 volts or more. That's 20VDC in this picture, or sometimes it's labled WVDC. This one is 45000 microfarads- if you can find room for it, great; otherwise a smaller one is find. I had decent results with only 5000microfarads.

It should cost $2 at an electronics surplus store. Or you can buy the orange one in the picture here from a KTM dealer:


I don't have the courage to look up the price.

A capacitor will take some of the stress off your battery, so I'd use one even with a battery.
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Old 12-18-2006, 09:22 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meat popsicle
I will put hiim in the lineup for the next update (and reorganization). We can have boejangles sticker the bloke - he's a friend of his.

Heya Luke! Long time since Mendocino
Funny you should mention that- I just escaped from Boe's sticker free.


It has been a long time since mendo... I've been out of town- need to write a report about that too....
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