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Old 12-18-2006, 09:49 PM   #31
meat popsicle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke
Funny you should mention that- I just escaped from Boe's sticker free.


It has been a long time since mendo... I've been out of town- need to write a report about that too....
Hi to James too

Welcome back... now about that overpriced OEM capacitor:

2003 KTM 640 Adventure
#11
Item #: 49111435100
CONDENSATOR 25V, 10.000 MF
Quanity On Diagram: 1
Cost Each: $56.52



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Old 12-19-2006, 03:45 AM   #32
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I hope I am not steeling your thread with my problems but here ya go.

this is the directions that came with the regulator



here is the battery



and here are the caps, and yes 30 and 10 micro. I got the same results with all three

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Old 12-19-2006, 07:55 AM   #33
meat popsicle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kellyk7
I hope I am not steeling your thread with my problems but here ya go.
...
I thought that was a good thing to do to a thread.
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Old 12-19-2006, 09:59 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meat popsicle
I thought that was a good thing to do to a thread.
Does this make me semi-technicaly co-dependant.



Or just plain messed up
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Old 12-19-2006, 10:19 AM   #35
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wow thats a write up, and strangely enough i think i understood it...

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Old 12-19-2006, 12:17 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kellyk7
I hope I am not steeling your thread with my problems but here ya go.

this is the directions that came with the regulator

here is the battery

and here are the caps, and yes 30 and 10 micro. I got the same results with all three
First, check the battery. Put it on a charger for five minutes and then see if it will power a small 12V bulb, like a tail light or turn signal. If it won't do that, replace the battery or buy a capacitor that is near the right size. If you have a surplus store nearby a big electorlytic capacitor like I posted before is the way to go; if not, try one of these They are about right electrically but be careful not to put too much stress on the leads. If you are going to mail order, get one of these instead.

If the battery is ok, then check the regulator. I'd start by figuring out the blue/black wire deal. Ask trailtech what the resistance ought to be between them and make sure that your regulator is the same. Ask if there's some other way to test the blue/black connection inside the regulator that's better than measuring resistance.

Does your multimeter have a diode check function? If so, check the value from the yellow lines to red, black, and blue. The reading will depend on how you connect the meter but for each part of the regulator you measure you should see between .5 and 1 volt with the meter connected with one polarity and more than 1.5 volts with the meter connected in the other polarity.
The number you see that is greater than 1.5 volts should be the same as the number when the meter is not connected.

Basically, check the following connections:
yellow1-meter_red, reg_red-meter_black ______V
yellow1-meter_black, reg_red-meter_red _______V

repeat for yellow1/reg_black, yellow2/reg_red, yellow2/reg_black

This is testing the rectifier portion of the regulator. I can't think of a good way to check the regulator portion without a lot of test equipment.
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Old 12-20-2006, 06:11 AM   #37
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Luke,
Great post. Thanks for taking the time to do it. You have just cleared some things up for me that I have been "guessing" about for years. I will print this out and kepp it in my garage for as long as I am still able to read.
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Old 12-22-2006, 10:09 AM   #38
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Thankyou, it is almost worth registering here just to say how much I appriciate that info. But just to make it really worth it, i've got a few questions for you too later. I'll just look a little more at my numbers before I get them together here and ask just how wrong I am.
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Old 12-22-2006, 11:57 AM   #39
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So did anybody change the stator over to Delta? And how did/will the regulator handle that?

Edit - I'm thinking KLR which has 3 phases into the regulator. The regulator above looks to be single phase (2 inputs - yellow wires)
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Old 12-23-2006, 01:40 AM   #40
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Thanks Luke.
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Old 12-23-2006, 04:23 AM   #41
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Unfortuneately I can not use the file you made, the computer refuses to work with programs more advanced than solitaire...

Anyway, I have a 50cc "offroad" bike, and with the 45/40W BA20D headlight the light isn't bad, but I would like to have "a little" more. So now I have a couple of 35W HID kits, and one of them will end up on that bike... (Why settle for "good" when you can do "overkill"?)

The generator unfortuneately does not deliver enough power for the HID when the losses in rectifier etc. that I will need are counted in, so a small upgrade is needed. A big upgrade would be better ofcourse, but I doubt that is possible.

The generator is wound with total 400 turns of 0,7mm wire on 5 poles, and I estimate the length of the wire is about 23m. The windings restance should be just about 1.5 ohms when hot, according to your "+50%". I have not bothered measuring as the meters are inaccurate at low resistances.

At peak RPM the OCV is 50V and at 13V it deliveres 4A. I have no numbers for other rpm now, that'll come after xmas. low rpm charging isnt my prime conscern anyway, the bike is only driveable at 5000-9000rpm.

Using the same number of turns but 1.0mm wire would lower the windings resistance to 0,75 ohms, and that should give a descent increase in current, right? Reducing to 360 turns or so might even make room for 1,1 or 1,2mm wire, increasing the power even more and ofcourse increasing SC due to the reduced numbers of turns. The resistance should reduce to 81% if Im right, with a corresponding increase in current, and the OCV should be reduced 10%, same as the number of turns.

Am I correct so far? Just wondering so I dont order wire I shouldnt use...
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Old 12-24-2006, 12:44 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beezer
So did anybody change the stator over to Delta? And how did/will the regulator handle that?

Edit - I'm thinking KLR which has 3 phases into the regulator. The regulator above looks to be single phase (2 inputs - yellow wires)
The KTM is 3 phase, like the KLR. The XR that we've been trying to troubleshoot is 2 phase. For the purposes of this analysis, they are the same. The difference is that when you go to rewind the stator, you have three windings to change instead of one. The changes are all relative, so you rewind with X% more or fewer windings than whatever was on there in the first place.


Regarding a change to a Delta connection on the stator.. I suspect the results may be similar to this Look for the big post by Earthscape. He used a different stator, but got the sort of output I'd expect from reconnecting the stock stator. The end result looked like one fried aftermarket regulator, one flaky stock regulator, and probably one fried CDI. Very bad news.

....edit.... as of today, it seems that the CDI didn't fry after all!

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Old 12-24-2006, 02:13 PM   #43
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Flummo;
It looks like you have everything right- the only thing I'd question is the OCV at full rpm. It seems very low.

The spreadsheet has a table for predicting output power based on the parameters... if you don't have excel you can do it yourself.

Stator parameters:
OCVA = open circuit voltage at a particular RPM
RPMA = rpm that the above open circuit voltage was measured
SCCA = short circuit current

Operating conditions:
LV = load voltage
RPM = engine speed

output current = (OCVA*RPM/RPMA - LV)/((OCVA*RPM/RPMA)/SCCA)
which is the same as: SCCA*(1-LV/(OCVA*RPM/RPMA))

Alternately, see if this works. It's a google spreadsheet. I think it's viewable by anyone. The graphs didn't copy over, unfortunately


One ohm (cold) sounds pretty high for winding resistance, I can include that in the model, but it does make the math more complicated. I figured that if it affected the output less than 10% that I should not worry about it, but it sounds like it is important after all.

Even with an inaccurate meter, go ahead and measure the winding resistance anyway and subtract the resistance the meter measures when you touch both probes together directly. With a digital meter this should give a rough sanity check for your calculations.

Changing the winding resistance by going with a thicker wire should help- with the resistances you have, it should more than make up for the extra losses in the rectifier. If you go with fewer windings, don't forget that you also reduce the length of the wire, which helps even more.

You'll probably want a battery to provide the start-up current that the HID lights require.
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Old 12-25-2006, 06:23 AM   #44
Flummo
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Thanks for the reply. Too bad my computer crashed after I wrote you a long reply... Oh, well. Here we go again.

I was also suprised by the low OCV. I will make all the measurments seriously as soon as I get a chance.

The google spreadsheet worked fine, will come in handy once I get all the numbers.

I have measured the cold resistance with a couple of meters, and it seems to be 0,6-0,7 ohm. Less than I expected, the wire must be shorter than I estimated, but at 1 ohm when hot it still isnt good.

I will have a battery (or even two) for the HID, it wouldn't work without it. I think I'll use a cheap regulator/rectifier for snowmobiles, that'll probably be the simplest solution.


Do you know how a stator reacts to dual windings? Instead of a single 400 turn winding (for example) you put two 200-400 turn windings on top of eachother. On low rpm they are connected in series (with relays & simple electronics) to give a single winding with many turns, charging early but only low current. On higher rpm they are connected in parallel, giving low number of turns and low resistance = high current. In theory I think it sounds good, but then again, so did Titanic...

A spinoff on this: How does a stator react when one part of the winding is disconnected? Example: the generator has 400 turns in total, but with outlets at 300 and 400 turns. On low rpm all is used, but on higher rpm the power is instead drawn from the "300 outlet". How does the 100 unused turns affect the output of the windings that actually are being used?


Now, if you excuse me, I'll go get the axe and take a chat with my computer about that crash...

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Old 12-25-2006, 02:16 PM   #45
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Good stuff here!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flummo
I have measured the cold resistance with a couple of meters, and it seems to be 0,6-0,7 ohm. Less than I expected, the wire must be shorter than I estimated, but at 1 ohm when hot it still isnt good.
1 ohm is a lot, it might not be that high. I came up with the +50% by taking the tempco of copper (.4%/degreeC) and guessing that an aircooled motor would run up to 140C

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flummo
Do you know how a stator reacts to dual windings?
The only direct experience that I have was running my XR while measureing the stator output. It made no difference (that I could tell) to the ignition output what I was doing to the lighting output. (short, open, in between)

Everything after this based on one guess:
My guess is that the different poles on the core are mostly independant from one another, but that windings on the same pole would be coupled together like a transformer with multiple secondary windings. If you think about it, the stator core is the same as a transformer core except that the flux is induced by the flywheel magnets, instead of a voltage applied to another set of windings. Since the poles are independant, you want to use all the poles, all the time to get the most power out.

So on your 5-pole stator you could put on two windings, 40 turns per pole each. Connect them in series at low rpm to get the equivilent of a 400 turn winding. At higher rpm you could use only one of the 200 turn windings and have a higher current output. Putting the second winding in parallel shouldn't change the resistance in the stator, but it will halve the wiring resistance.
The windings don't have to have the same number of turns, but it makes thinking about it easier.
If the windings are dependent (coupled) then the voltage on one winding will always be a fixed multiple of the voltage on the other windings. Eg, if you are powering a 15V load with a 300 turn winding, the other 100 turn winding will have 5 volts across it even if it is unloaded.

I looked at trying this and in my case the potential gain wasn't worth the added complexity. One thing to know is that if you disconnect a coil with a relay it will arc the relay unless you have some sort of snubber built in.


As for your computer, show it this:
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