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Old 05-11-2010, 12:15 PM   #91
tarzan30
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XR650r Stator questions!

Thanks for the writeup. I have been messing around with my current XR for a few months tring to get a good setup.

History:
rewond stock stator "after reading all your replies i think it is only one circuit in stator"
stock wires coming up to regulator then CDI
one more wire spliced in after the regulator "big red" going up to headlight for power.

What i am trying to do and i think i have finally figure it out is.

I have isolated all signals on the battery circuit. No ground.
The regulator and headlight/brake are using frame as ground. "That would be my other AC side right?"
If i wire in a full phase rectifier with the following config will it work?

Big red AC regulated wire is the one power i have from the stator.
Pin 1 on rec says ac
pin 2 on rec says ac
pin 3 on rec says +
pin 4 on rec says -

As long as i have no other DC grounds from my battery

I should be able to

Pin 1 from "big red"
Pin 2 from frame
pin 3 from + on batt
pin 4 from - on batt

I think that is how it should be ..... ... .. please tell me im right?

Thanks in advance.

T
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Old 05-11-2010, 12:55 PM   #92
Luke OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarzan30
Thanks for the writeup. I have been messing around with my current XR for a few months tring to get a good setup.

History:
rewond stock stator "after reading all your replies i think it is only one circuit in stator"
stock wires coming up to regulator then CDI
one more wire spliced in after the regulator "big red" going up to headlight for power.

What i am trying to do and i think i have finally figure it out is.

I have isolated all signals on the battery circuit. No ground.
The regulator and headlight/brake are using frame as ground. "That would be my other AC side right?"
If i wire in a full phase rectifier with the following config will it work?

Big red AC regulated wire is the one power i have from the stator.
Pin 1 on rec says ac
pin 2 on rec says ac
pin 3 on rec says +
pin 4 on rec says -

As long as i have no other DC grounds from my battery

I should be able to

Pin 1 from "big red"
Pin 2 from frame
pin 3 from + on batt
pin 4 from - on batt

I think that is how it should be ..... ... .. please tell me im right?

Thanks in advance.

T

Your connections look right, however if you are using the stock AC regulator and a regular bridge rectifier instead of a combination regulator/rectifier it probably won't work. I haven't done this myself, but a friend did and it didn't work. He was getting well over 35V on the DC side. He was using a capacitor on the DC side. If you use a battery I would expect it to work for a little while until the battery cooks.
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Old 05-11-2010, 01:12 PM   #93
tarzan30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke
Your connections look right, however if you are using the stock AC regulator and a regular bridge rectifier instead of a combination regulator/rectifier it probably won't work. I haven't done this myself, but a friend did and it didn't work. He was getting well over 35V on the DC side. He was using a capacitor on the DC side. If you use a battery I would expect it to work for a little while until the battery cooks.
by regular bridge rectifier what do you mean? It is a full phase rectifier that according to my electric motor repair shop guy said .. " it will turn 12AC to 12DC"
the part i bough from him is used in welders and is rated at 35amps. because i am getting a regulated AC at 13-14v should that not just go into DC if the connections are correct?

Thanks for the help.
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Old 05-11-2010, 02:40 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarzan30
by regular bridge rectifier what do you mean? It is a full phase rectifier that according to my electric motor repair shop guy said .. " it will turn 12AC to 12DC"
the part i bough from him is used in welders and is rated at 35amps. because i am getting a regulated AC at 13-14v should that not just go into DC if the connections are correct?

Thanks for the help.
You have a regular bridge rectifier. It will work fine if you want to run a light bulb or heated grips or an electric motor off the DC, but will not work for a battery. The reason is that the average DC voltage will be near the 12V that you want but the peak voltage will be higher, and it's the peak voltage that will kill a battery.

For utility power, the peak is around 1.4x the average value, so 170V peak for a 120VAC wall socket. On a bike it could be about anything- for my friend's XR600 it was around 35V peak at 13VAC.
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Old 05-11-2010, 02:47 PM   #95
tarzan30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke
You have a regular bridge rectifier. It will work fine if you want to run a light bulb or heated grips or an electric motor off the DC, but will not work for a battery. The reason is that the average DC voltage will be near the 12V that you want but the peak voltage will be higher, and it's the peak voltage that will kill a battery.

For utility power, the peak is around 1.4x the average value, so 170V peak for a 120VAC wall socket. On a bike it could be about anything- for my friend's XR600 it was around 35V peak at 13VAC.
Im lost here.. thanks for sticking with me. When you are saying peak. would that not be unregulated? If i have a regulated AC circut that only gives me 12-14. how would it peak more than that? I though a regulator would take out any peaks?

Thanks again.
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Old 05-11-2010, 03:16 PM   #96
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Would there be any way to switch the wiring through a solenoid or a relay to go from Y (star) to delta with the engine running?

Would there be any benefit?




Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke
I didn't take any pictures, unfortunately. Here is one web article that shows the mechanical side of rewinding. I seem to remember one better one, but I can't find it now. I would recommend against adding to the stock windings- just pull them off and start fresh. The most important thing is that you don't mess up the ignition coil windings. Next most important is that you remember to alternate the winding direction on alternate poles. If you don't do this, the windings will cancel each other instead of adding.

I haven't looked into the mechanics of rewinding a 3-phase stator, and I won't until my bike runs out of power. I am sure that a more powerful stator on the 640 will require a better regulator. My first attempt at building a regulator (for the XR) was a learning experience.


I don't actually know that the ktm uses a Y winding. The picture in the manual shows a Y winding, but that doesn't mean it's so. Starting with a Y winding does make for an easier upgrade path for us hacks, but for a factory upgrade they can just specify a different number of turns.

KTM seems to have chosen a really high open circuit voltage, but it actually makes sense. The stator puts out enough power at low rpms but the power doesn't increase much at higher rpms, keeping stress off the regulator and battery. It also provides higher voltage when starting, which will make the CDI happy.


I don't know, but here's a start: The resistances of 20,16,12 ga wire are 10,4,1.5 milliohms/foot, respectively. So for a 3 foot run at 10 amps, the voltage drop is 3ft x 2ways x r x 10amps or .6,.24,.09 volts, respectively.
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Old 05-11-2010, 04:07 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarzan30
Im lost here.. thanks for sticking with me. When you are saying peak. would that not be unregulated? If i have a regulated AC circut that only gives me 12-14. how would it peak more than that? I though a regulator would take out any peaks?

Thanks again.
Loads that are normally used on AC circuits don't really care about peak voltage over the short term, so the regulator doesn't need to limit them. A household light bulb is designed for an average voltage of 120. It sees a peak of 170V for a few milliseconds at a time, which is not long enough to damage it. If you connected it to a 120V battery it would work just like it normally does. If you connected it to a 170V battery it would burn out after a second or two. On a bike, the relationship between peak and average voltage is not as well defined as for utility power which is why I don't use it for an example.

A DC regulator/rectifier is designed to limit the peak voltage because things connected to it often need to have the peak voltage limited. If there is no capacitor or battery -or a bad connection to them- the DC reg/rec can make the average voltage too low while correctly limiting the peak voltage.
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Old 05-11-2010, 04:19 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D K
Would there be any way to switch the wiring through a solenoid or a relay to go from Y (star) to delta with the engine running?

Would there be any benefit?
Yes. Just bring all six ends of the windings out of the case to relays which would automatically change the connections based on the engine speed. You could also have different windings on the same core and connect them in all kinds of ways. Instead of having one curve of output vs. rpm, you'd be able to take the best parts of several curves.

It wouldn't be worth the complexity for me but it might be for someone else.
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Old 05-11-2010, 07:38 PM   #99
elsalvadorklr
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awesome info, need help

hey guys thanks for the awesome thread.
Looking at my xr600 stator this is what I found, two wires, and a splooge of epoxy. How can I test it before rebuliding. Im in a middle of a re-build and looking at everything while parts come in.

Pic:



Thanks OP.
Christian
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Old 05-12-2010, 06:13 AM   #100
tarzan30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke
Loads that are normally used on AC circuits don't really care about peak voltage over the short term, so the regulator doesn't need to limit them. A household light bulb is designed for an average voltage of 120. It sees a peak of 170V for a few milliseconds at a time, which is not long enough to damage it. If you connected it to a 120V battery it would work just like it normally does. If you connected it to a 170V battery it would burn out after a second or two. On a bike, the relationship between peak and average voltage is not as well defined as for utility power which is why I don't use it for an example.

A DC regulator/rectifier is designed to limit the peak voltage because things connected to it often need to have the peak voltage limited. If there is no capacitor or battery -or a bad connection to them- the DC reg/rec can make the average voltage too low while correctly limiting the peak voltage.
here is a discription of a AC regulator. This is why i am confused with what you are telling me.

AC REGULATOR
An electronic circuit used to maintain a level amount of voltage in an electrical line. It eliminates power surges, spikes and brownouts, which can cause harm to sensitive electronics. A voltage regulator "module" (VRM) is a voltage regulator in a replaceable unit. See surge suppression and UPS.

I have seen from testing the stock AC reg that it does fluctuate like you say but only to a prediscribed limit. I am guessing the limit is 14v. That may not be what your telling me . If i am learning from you the voltage is not the peak your talking about it may be the current that will peak?


Thanks again.
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Old 05-12-2010, 11:47 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by elsalvadorklr
hey guys thanks for the awesome thread.
Looking at my xr600 stator this is what I found, two wires, and a splooge of epoxy. How can I test it before rebuliding. Im in a middle of a re-build and looking at everything while parts come in.

Pic:



Thanks OP.
Christian
Take a look here: http://www.justxr.com/jaw/stator.html

Measure the resistance of the exciter coil and the lighting coil. The exciter (the big lump of thin wire under the epoxy) should be between 230 and 320 ohms. If it's even a little higher than 320 I'd fix it. I'd guess the resistance of the lighting coil should less than 1 ohm.

The exciter is the red and black wire, I think. Its other end is attached to the core so you need to have good clean contact between the core and the engine case.

I'm just going off memory- I don't have the manual right now, so double check everything I've said.
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Old 05-12-2010, 12:18 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarzan30
here is a discription of a AC regulator. This is why i am confused with what you are telling me.

AC REGULATOR
An electronic circuit used to maintain a level amount of voltage in an electrical line. It eliminates power surges, spikes and brownouts, which can cause harm to sensitive electronics. A voltage regulator "module" (VRM) is a voltage regulator in a replaceable unit. See surge suppression and UPS.

I have seen from testing the stock AC reg that it does fluctuate like you say but only to a prediscribed limit. I am guessing the limit is 14v. That may not be what your telling me . If i am learning from you the voltage is not the peak your talking about it may be the current that will peak?


Thanks again.

You're measuring the voltage with a voltmeter, right? That shows you the voltage- averaged over about 1/3 of a second. If you hook the meter up to a battery, it'll say 13V. If you hook it up to something that generates power in repeating pulses - say, 100V for 13 milliseconds followed by 0 V for 87 milliseconds the meter will still say 13V*.

Hook a 13V headlight up to this 100V pulsing power source and it will be perfectly happy. If you have a GPS designed for 13V, it will be ruined by the same source.

If this same power source were adjusted so that it put out 100V for 13 seconds, then 0V for 87 seconds, the voltmeter would alternate between 100V and 0V, and the headlight would burn out after a second or so of 100V.


*Yes, I'm ignoring the difference between mean and RMS.
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Old 05-12-2010, 06:04 PM   #103
elsalvadorklr
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hmmmmmmmmmmmm the manual is very vague...as in it shows how to test the exciter coil while connected to the harness on the frame. Looking at my two wires they are both white, coming ot of the coil/stator, cant distinguish between the two. one wire has a bigger connector if that means anything. Am I supposed to take off all that epoxy and get a wire off the exciter and then ground the negative to any ground? engine, bolt, whatever...

Sorry for being dumb but I guess im not looking hard enough. Ive read the xrs post from jaw, but he unwound his coils from the get go.
thanks so much, great help, and please excuse my ignorance!
Christian
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Old 05-12-2010, 06:55 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elsalvadorklr
hmmmmmmmmmmmm the manual is very vague...as in it shows how to test the exciter coil while connected to the harness on the frame. Looking at my two wires they are both white, coming ot of the coil/stator, cant distinguish between the two. one wire has a bigger connector if that means anything. Am I supposed to take off all that epoxy and get a wire off the exciter and then ground the negative to any ground? engine, bolt, whatever...

Sorry for being dumb but I guess im not looking hard enough. Ive read the xrs post from jaw, but he unwound his coils from the get go.
thanks so much, great help, and please excuse my ignorance!
Christian

Don't take off the epoxy unless you want to rewind it. Touch one lead of your ohmmeter to the core of the stator -or the bolts or the cover- and the other to the connector pin you want to measure. One wire should go to the CDI (probably the thinner one) and the other to the regulator.
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Old 05-12-2010, 07:08 PM   #105
elsalvadorklr
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ok so you are saying that I should hook up the two wires from the stator to the cdi and regulator like they would be normally on a running bike and then test the same leads that way?

I feel retarded. sorry, ill read up more. I thought there was a way of testing resistance just by testing one coil to a ground and vice versa. what I get that way is either pegged at 0 ohms, or no reading at all. Using the core as ground, or stator cover as ground.

Ill see what I can find out...thanks very much for your help.
Cheers!
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