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Old 11-14-2013, 05:50 AM   #4636
RLK
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I see a bunch of people who live at or below sea level talking about their bikes running rich and I see an invitation for everyone to come to Colorado where the fun starts at 6500 feet above sea level.

I want my bike to be a little lean at 5000 feet so it will be just a little rich at 14000, the way the stock jetting is rich at sea level. Around here you can start the day at 6000 and be at 14000 feet in 20 miles. Any ideas?
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Old 11-14-2013, 02:26 PM   #4637
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjxlrider View Post
I have 4 sets of them also,if Joefj1200 doesn't hook you up I can.
The Raptor carbs work good also, it does require the intake boots to be opened up for the bigger carb snouts.The airbox boots also don't fit and you need to make up a whole new filter/boot setup. Kind of a PITA. The Keihins are $450 ish and end up with no airbox also.

I'd be in for an XT ride, don't know if I could make it to Colorado,but do agrre it would be a great place along with Utah or Arizona. Neither a better option for me unfortunately.

Thanks for filling in the details on the carb swaps. I was wondering if the Raptor carbs would need some horsing with to install. At least the airbox will still work. That is a plus.

Utah would be sweet for a meetup. Especially if it was some place near Moab. That part of the world is beautiful.
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Old 11-14-2013, 03:22 PM   #4638
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Originally Posted by RLK View Post
I see a bunch of people who live at or below sea level talking about their bikes running rich and I see an invitation for everyone to come to Colorado where the fun starts at 6500 feet above sea level.

I want my bike to be a little lean at 5000 feet so it will be just a little rich at 14000, the way the stock jetting is rich at sea level. Around here you can start the day at 6000 and be at 14000 feet in 20 miles. Any ideas?
I can give a little input on this. I live at 5000 feet in Denver. Like you I can ride up to 14,000 in a couple hours. Most of my rides will start around 5000 & get up to 8000-10,000 feet on average. When it comes to finding a tune that will work in such an elevation range there is a few things that you can do. Bear in mind unless the bike has fuel injection with oxygen / altitude compensation there really is no perfect solution. You can either run the bike too rich or too lean for certain areas of elevation & that is about it.

Here are a few things & methods to consider:

1. Don't just imagine you & your bike eternally existing on some epic 14000 foot precipice. Get real about your average riding elevation. If 80% of your riding is between say 5000-8000 feet & sometimes you get higher then that then tune your bike for 5000-8000 feet & leave it be. If you plan on doing some rides in higher elevations sometimes then either let it run rich & hope for the best or take a jet kit & go camp out for a few days at say 10,000 feet. Completely retune the carbs to run proper at the high elevation. Take notes on what jets, needle & carb settings were best for the lower elevations before retuning for the higher elevations. Then when the bike is tuned proper for higher elevations take notes on what jets, needle & carb settings were best for the higher elevations. When it comes time to return from the tuning camp out return the carbs back to the tune for the lower elevations & head home. This way you have two setups. One for high elevations & one for lower elevations.

2. If you are always riding 8000 feet of elevation change & you want to try to get a tune that will work in all the elevation range you are gonna need to make some sacrifices. You will need to tune for the middle of the elevation range. Bear in mind that if you do this then you will be running too lean in lower elevations & too rich in upper elevations. While its probably fine to run too rich, running too lean can cause premature engine wear or damage as too lean cause overheating, burned pistons, valves ect. This is why up above I mentioned you need to get real about your average riding. If you ride 10,000 miles a year around 5000 feet & only a few hundred over 10,000 then obviously your bike needs to be tuned for 5000 feet not 10,000 as if it was tuned for 10,000 feet then 90% of the year it will be running too lean in this scenario.

3. Something I have noticed about dramatic elevation change with bikes is that the lower rpm/throttle range is what is effected the most. So the most important jets to worry about is gonna be the idle/pilot jets. The main jet can be rich in upper elevations as it mostly kicks in at high rpms. At these high rpms the motor can more easily handle being too rich as by the time the main jet kicks in the motor is really screaming & will just deal with the extra gas by belching it out. What the motor can't deal with at higher elevations is building rpms from an idle or even idle for that matter if the idle/pilot jet are too rich. On several bikes & rides I have been in situations where the bike is just ripping along fine tearing up the side of a mountain. It will be running great that is until I pull over & stop for a picture. Then when the bike drops its rpms down to an idle... blaaaaaa the bike barely runs & refuses to build rpms. At this point what is happening is the idle/pilot jet is way too rich & at lower rpms the motor can't do anything but flood with. I have found two on trail solutions for this: 1 pull the spare leaner idle/pilot jet out of the tool kit, swap it in & keep ripping OR 2 if no leaner jets are in the tool kit just point the bike downhill & take off letting the elevation assist the bike in building rpms until the rpms are high enough to get the extra fuel to just blow through. Note if option 2 is chosen as a solution do yourself a favor & just head back down the mountain.

4. So overall a good compromise I have found is a combination of all the above. First of all I just get real & face the fact that 80% of the time I ride between 5000-8000 feet. I keep my bike tuned for this range of elevation. If I am gonna get higher usually I am probably gonna hit as much as 10,000 feet, I am not gonna be there very long cause its a mountain pass not a plateau usually & I just let the bike run rich & its fine. If I know I am going up into higher elevations over 10,000 feet & staying up there for extended periods of time/miles then I either retune at home & then take off too lean or I just swap the jets on the trail.

5. Overall if at possible I try to keep the bike tuned for optimum performance for the chosen riding of the moment even if it means some carb fiddling on the trail. That way I know the bike is performing at its best. If your riding all day or for a couple of days 5-10 minutes of carb fiddling every now & then is no big deal when you think about it.

6. If you have to pick a sloppy tune to be able to clear a huge range of elevation just run rich, keep the throttle pinned, & don't stop at high elevations is a good bet as the highest points of a ride are usually brief moments on mountain passes that climb to an apex & then immediately descend.

7. Another tip I should mention that really makes elevation change easier to tune for is KEEP THE OEM AIR BOX & DO NOT DRILL SO MUCH AS A PIN HOLE IN IT. Air boxes help create a stable & constant inlet pressure. Taking them off is for close to sea level folks surrounded by dense air, racers that need bleeding edge performance & are willing to tune the carb every 20 miles to get it & wankers that like to install & brag about shiny new parts more then they ride. Whether the bike is a 2T or a 4T air boxes are crucial to having a consistent tune. The higher the elevation the lower the air density. The lower the air density the more air that needs to move over a jet to suck gas up. Keeping the air box on will help create a situation that the suction force on the jet stays consistent as the motor is always working at pulling air through the box. Pulling an air box off & running can filters will cause a bike to perform like crap as soon as the bike moves out of the elevation that it is tuned for because with can filters nothing holds the atmospheric pressure inside the throttle body in check, ie the atmospheric pressure in the throttle body becomes more susceptible to changes in the environments atmospheric air pressure. I am not going to go into the science of this scenario as it is beyond the scope of this post & no doubt wankers will cry foul no matter what anyway. Suffice to say if you do the research & some testing at high elevation you will find I am correct in this matter.

8. Similar concepts from tip #7 relating to carbs also apply to mufflers as well. A stock muffler will generally allow a more consistent tune then a derestricted exhaust because the extra back pressure of a stock exhaust will hold the tune in check.

9. As a matter of fact in general the less modified a bike is the larger range of elevation it will cover without going out of tune. Remember bikes when they come from the factory are designed to be sold all over the world so they are designed for consistency rather then performance. This consistency is what is needed to handle changing elevations. Tuning for 1000s feet of elevation change is completely different then tuning for maximum performance. When it comes to elevation even if it means a loss of a few HP consistency is what needs to be sought after. Concepts like this are why a bike like a stock Honda Trail 90 will run fine from the ocean to the top of a 10,000' mountain & back without any tuning what so ever while a modified motocross bike would need several jet changes along the way to do the same ride.

10. As far as what is the best tune setup for a wide range of elevation what I have found to work & be safe for the motor is this: Tune the lower end of the throttle spectrum to the upper elevations & the upper end of the throttle spectrum to the lower elevations. This will create a carb tune that will be running lean at lower elevations & proper at upper elevations during idle & the initial twist of the throttle while running proper at lower elevations & rich in the upper elevations during the mid to upper spectrum of the throttle. So how such a carb tune works for example between 5000' & 10,000' feet is that the bike will be lean during idle & the initial twist of the throttle & proper in the mid to upper spectrum of the throttle when the bike is at 5000' feet. Then when the bike is at 10,000' feet the carb tune will be proper during idle & the intial twist of the throttle & too rich in the mid to upper spectrum of the throttle. This setup will avoid the bike dying out at low rpms at high elevations & compartmentalize the effect of being too lean to only during idle & the initial twist of the throttle at lower elevations. The gist of such a tune is this; use idle/pilot jets that are tuned for say 10,000' feet and a main jet tuned for 5000' feet. So if you are considering a tune for say between 5000 & 14,000 feet I would suggest tuning the low end of the carb to 12,000' the high end of the carb to 7000' and hope for the best when you are at 5000' or 14,000' feet. If you live at 5000' & really want to be able to hit 14,000' a smoother setup may be tuning the low end of the carb to 10,000' & the high end of the carb to 6000'. Then while the bike may be a little lean at low rpms & idle rough at 5000' it will be fine because as soon as the throttle is opened the carb will get a proper fuel mixture. Then when you are over 10,000' as you head up to 14,000 feet the bike will idle & take off fine & just run rich when the rpms are high & the motor can handle it. Then at high elevations all you will need to do is keep the throttle wide & the rpms high as you rip up the side of the mountain to your favorite 14,000 precipice.

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Old 11-14-2013, 03:39 PM   #4639
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How about starting out lean, but using partial choke, then reducing choke(handlebar mount is the only one this controllable) as you go up. I kind of use this method for early morning on the way to work when it's 15F and going home it's 40-45F. Obviously not the "best way" but may work for short times when starting out and then going up. I'm rather leary of messing with the carbs when it's 20-50 miles from civilization unless absolutely necessary. Which part will fall and get lost?
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Old 11-14-2013, 04:26 PM   #4640
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Pissed Check your sh@t people!

After reading the posts that responded to this post... -->

Quote:
Originally Posted by DutchyKevin View Post
My XT600E is currently undergoing an open-heart surgery.
New cylinder, piston rings and such.

Also the cylinder head and valves are being overhauled and readjusted.

Question:

My XT is sporting a Wiseco high compression piston, K&N air filter and a stainless steel exhaust system of a wider diameter plus a Leovince muffler.

Can anyone tell me what needs to be adjusted to the carburators in order to get the right fuel/air mixture? Currently it's stock.. which is also the reason the engine needs some TLC right now The previous owner failed to have it set up right after installing the new parts..
<-- ...I wrote several scathing rants & ended up deleting them as I didn't want to stir up too much muck. However I would like to at very least point out that with the exception of the following two posts -->

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjxlrider View Post
It should need a bit more fuel than stock with that setup. The hi-comp piston itself won't "need" much more than the stock piston, it's the intake and exhaust added flow characteristics that need more fuel added to the extra air running through the motor now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DutchyKevin View Post
Thanks. I was hoping there would be like a standard setting for this stuff. I'll take the bike to a local enduro specialist and have it tuned on the dyno for optimal result
<-- pretty much all of the rest of the posts giving advice are either inexperienced myopically focused posts relating specifically to other bikes, builds, elevations, environments, ect OR WORSE ARE COMPLETE RUBBISH!

Seriously some of you need to spend some more time studying books & manuals and then do some tuning on a good many more bikes before you dispense advice on forums. Just because you bought a bike & read some other wanker's incorrect posts on a forum somewhere else doesn't qualify you as a tuner capable of dispensing knowledge. For crying out loud people the original poster's bike is getting an overhaul because some wanker was too dingbat nutty to properly up jet the carb after the bike was modified! OF COURSE THE CARB NEEDS TO BE UP JETTED ---> THE AIR FLOW THROUGH THE MOTOR HAS BEEN INCREASED & AS SUCH THE FUEL FLOW MUST BE INCREASED ALSO TO MAINTAIN PROPER AIR TO FUEL RATIO!!! Had the original poster followed the advice in some of the other posts the bike would have ended up right back in the shop with blown motor all over again.



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Old 11-15-2013, 05:05 AM   #4641
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What he said , +1. There is another cheep alternative for carbs. That would be the ninja 250 carb swap. There are several posts on here about it. There are two sizes and the smaller is said to work the best. That would be my next step if I can not source a 130 main jet for the first gen secondary carb. In reference to the 11:1 piston, how well does the motor hold up to the heat without an oil cooler? The 90 and up use the frame with added capacity over the first gen tank. The frame should act as a good heat sink. Does anyone who has done the high comp. piston have any comment?
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Old 11-15-2013, 10:17 AM   #4642
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Add a oil cooler, I have one in the process of building with an 11:1 but haven't run one in this motor. I'll probably put an XR400 one on it.

I have no experience in the Ninja carbs so can say how they work. May be something to try out. I do have a triplet of Mikuni's off a SRX snowmobile that I am eyeing.
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'88xt600 , --> '86 XT600(E-start,3TB motor) , --> '89 XT600 , --> '05 KLR650 ,
'85/'04XT600/660 hybrid ,turbo in the future, --> '85XT600 , --> '83 XT550 , --> '83 XL600 ,
'08 525XC , --> '06 LTR450. looking for '96 thru '05 DR650
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Old 11-15-2013, 10:44 AM   #4643
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Xr400 oil cooler, hummmm. I will look into that . Where in the oil circuit would you put it? It looks like it goes around the down tube. Very cool.

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Old 11-15-2013, 01:41 PM   #4644
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It would go between the tank and the engine. I am planning to take the line coming out of the bottom of the oil tank and running to the cooler then back to the top of engine. I'm not entirely sure if that cooler would be best for this particular bike, I need to get 2 or three different model to find the best fitting with the least vulnerable lines. Normal European coolers are mounted next to the jug on the left side. I believe there is a Suzuki cooler that fits the option also.

Like this one, several options for coolers, just have to find out dimensions and fittings. http://www.ebay.com/itm/99-SUZUKI-IN...e71b8e&vxp=mtr
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'88xt600 , --> '86 XT600(E-start,3TB motor) , --> '89 XT600 , --> '05 KLR650 ,
'85/'04XT600/660 hybrid ,turbo in the future, --> '85XT600 , --> '83 XT550 , --> '83 XL600 ,
'08 525XC , --> '06 LTR450. looking for '96 thru '05 DR650
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Old 11-15-2013, 02:37 PM   #4645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thumpthumpthump View Post
...if I can not source a 130 main jet for the first gen secondary carb...
If you find a source for a 130 secondary main jet please post it. I am looking for some secondary jets too.

I just ordered a micro drill bit set from fleabay. I am hoping the bits will work for drilling out 125 2ndary main & a 50 pilot.
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Old 11-15-2013, 02:56 PM   #4646
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Quote:
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It would go between the tank and the engine. I am planning to take the line coming out of the bottom of the oil tank and running to the cooler then back to the top of engine.
Do you mean to say "take the line coming out of the bottom of the oil tank and running to the cooler then back to the bottom of engine."?

I just looked at my XT and the oil line on the bottom of the tank goes to the bottom of the motor. The line from the top of the tank goes to the top of the crankcase.

I am just curious as I would like to add a cooler to my XT too. No way I am gonna pay for one of the $400 Kedo coolers. If I could just mount one from a junk yard in line that would be great.

Does anyone know the direction of the flow of the oil in a XT600 system with an oil tank?

Does it come from the bottom of the motor, up the line to the bottom of the tank, out the line in the top of the tank and back into the top of the crankcase?

OR

Does it come from the top of the motor, up the line to the top of the tank, out the line on the bottom of the tank and back into the bottom of the crankcase?

OR

Does the oil run some other way?

& what is with the rubber hose that runs from the top of the oil tank to the top of the head? Does oil flow in it or is it a breather tube of some sort?

manco screwed with this post 11-15-2013 at 03:19 PM
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Old 11-15-2013, 03:13 PM   #4647
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Originally Posted by jjxlrider View Post
How about starting out lean, but using partial choke, then reducing choke(handlebar mount is the only one this controllable) as you go up. I kind of use this method for early morning on the way to work when it's 15F and going home it's 40-45F. Obviously not the "best way" but may work for short times when starting out and then going up. I'm rather leary of messing with the carbs when it's 20-50 miles from civilization unless absolutely necessary. Which part will fall and get lost?
I am not so sure about the choke method. It might work I suppose.

To change jets on the trail isn't so bad. Its changing needle settings that is prone to stuff getting lost. I know this from experience. Friggin needle clips go flinging. I once road home with duck tape in place of my needle clip. Ever since then I generally mess with needles only at home.

Changing jets just kinda comes with riding large amounts of elevation change. When it comes to changing jets while ridding I do try to avoid it too. If I have to one way to do it I found that minimizes risk is to find a slab of concrete to work on. For instance leave town head out on two lanes towards the trail, gain some elevation & swap the jets at the last gas station/rest area before the trail head. If I have to do it on a trail I will throw a jacket under the bike.

There is a risk of dropping parts but if one is careful it is rarely an issue. Some carbs are easier to work on then others. Carrying spare parts is a good idea if you think there is a risk of loosing something. Dirt always could be an issue too so its best tp keep the carbs clean from the get go.

Home are some other pointers to riding a large range of elevation that I could add to my original post are these tips:

2T motors are more effected by elevation change then 4T motors.

Small displacement motors are more effected by elevation change then large displacement motors.

Having an air box is more critical for 2T motors then 4T motors due to the intake characteristics of a 2T.

If you do tune a carb as suggested in tip #10 above be aware that while it will help to have such a tune for riding through a large range of elevation, having such a tune means the bike is always gonna be out of tune in one way or another. The tune is designed for elevation range not reliability or performance after all.
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Old 11-15-2013, 04:45 PM   #4648
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It's the bottom of the motor that is the inlet coming from the bottom of the tank. I think it would work best to have the cooler in that line, but haven't tried it myself, yet. Along side the motor is the better placement but a guard or crash bar is needed if you plan on laying it down sometime. The XR400 cooler is best mounted up under the headlight, but long oil lines scare me, but is well protected and in good cool air. Also not sure if it would effect oil flow being so high compared to the motor and tank.

The choke method is by no means the best way of adding fuel for the long run, I just do it for real short rides and don't rev the motor much ,for some cold mornings . Living in the flatlands, not much practice doing roadside jetting, no need to, just do it in the shop , but have dropped things from time to time and can just imagine having that happen in the mud. Carrying spare parts just in case something gets lost is kind of hard because you don't know what will drop, so what extras do ya bring?
I have run up to 5500ft in the St. Anthonies dunes and the 660cc was already running rough so another 5000 wouldn't work. It was jetted for sea level so if jetted for 5500 to7000 ,a 10k ft would work, just not very smooth.
Have you ever tried those Dial a Jets?, A person would need more than 1 kit to have the necessary amount of adjustment. Still not perfect.

Fuel Injection is the best answer.

Want to have fun? Go over to the klr650 forum and read the maintenance section. One of the "experts" is advising everyone to put in X main jet and needle position for 10F to 100F temp and sea level to 10kft, from Arizona to Maine, all of them run the same ,his exact words are " the klr isn't that fussy" and "the CV carb will adjust". ??????

Another "expert" has everybody taking there valve cover off to check valve clearances when the guy states he cleaned the carb and it doesn't run right anymore, several times I've seen that. One guy had black smoke coming out the exhaust and I insisted he fix the carb that he didn't put together right, and he was starting to take his topend apart from constant insistence about it being valve clearnces, only to suddenly notice the main jet laying on the ground in front of the bike !!!
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v-- -- -- --v -- -- - -- -v-- -- -- --v -- -- -- --v
'88xt600 , --> '86 XT600(E-start,3TB motor) , --> '89 XT600 , --> '05 KLR650 ,
'85/'04XT600/660 hybrid ,turbo in the future, --> '85XT600 , --> '83 XT550 , --> '83 XL600 ,
'08 525XC , --> '06 LTR450. looking for '96 thru '05 DR650

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Old 11-16-2013, 07:05 AM   #4649
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I have an 86 and a 90 xt and I do not see enough room between the down tube and the fender for the xr 400 cooler . On the first gen xt it would have to go on the side of the engine like the dr650 . Theirs is quite big and has a crash bar around it. The 90 has large openings in the front of the tank to get air to the tank in the frame. I have seen a picture of one mounted there on a non us bike. On a 90-95 bike you could put one there and run it through before it goes in the frame without hardly any extra plumbing. Just have to find one that would fit there. On the 86 it would have to run it on the left by the cylinder and run lines from the bottom of the tank to the cooler and then to the bottom of the engine to the sump as suggested before. Eather way it would need to be small , long and thin. Any ideas?
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Old 11-16-2013, 07:30 AM   #4650
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I have this one coming, http://www.ebay.com/itm/321241387955...84.m1497.l2648

I took a guess and will see how big it is and where it'll fit best. Will post pics of it. The DR oil cooler looks real similar and may work just as well. I am also going to do a flow test, just to make sure which ever coolers I use it won't impede oil flow.

I like the bolt on lines rather than just hose clamps.

The Tenere's over in Europe had coolers(plus some of the standard XT's) and you can get some of those, just finding sellers to ship to the US and the added shipping is a headache .
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v-- -- -- --v -- -- - -- -v-- -- -- --v -- -- -- --v
'88xt600 , --> '86 XT600(E-start,3TB motor) , --> '89 XT600 , --> '05 KLR650 ,
'85/'04XT600/660 hybrid ,turbo in the future, --> '85XT600 , --> '83 XT550 , --> '83 XL600 ,
'08 525XC , --> '06 LTR450. looking for '96 thru '05 DR650

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