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Old 04-17-2007, 03:46 AM   #151
KLboxeR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KTM640Dakar
So poolside if a MIG welder is a constant voltage machine how does the voltage increase?
With regards to a CV welder, doesn't stickout or arc length determine voltage to the degree it will vary at a given setting?
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Old 04-17-2007, 04:46 AM   #152
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just an attaboy,,,

Todd,,,,came across your thread and just finished reading it start to finish,,,
just want to give you ,,,,and,,,for sharing your wisdoms,,,

keep your cool,,,,especially with the devil's advocates,,,i love 'em,,they keep me on my toes and often provide another point of view

thanks,,,woody
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Old 04-17-2007, 04:47 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KLboxeR
With regards to a CV welder, doesn't stickout or arc length determine voltage to the degree it will vary at a given setting?
Indirectly.

The elements of the shield gas determine the arc voltage of any particular length of plasma.

The Constant Voltage, or CV, moniker given to MIG supplies is at best, misleading.

The wirefeed motor in the power supply directly controls the arc length. NOT the arc voltage.

The arc voltage, and the power supply voltage, are directly controlled by the physics of the plasma.

It is the arc that controls the MIG power supply, not the other way around.

The arc voltage is determined by the elements in the plasma, and the length of the plasma. And no power supply, even the ConEd power station with a few gigawatts, can overrule an element's physical and electrical properties.

The term Constant Voltage is misleading. No power supply is capable of creating an arc voltage different than what the shield gas elemental properties dictate.

And for a given arc length, the physical properties of helium produces a higher arc voltage than argon.

- Jim

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Poolside screwed with this post 04-17-2007 at 05:05 PM
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Old 04-17-2007, 04:59 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KLboxeR
With regards to a CV welder, doesn't stickout or arc length determine voltage to the degree it will vary at a given setting?
The voltage will remain the same if the electrical stickout is close or far. But..

The "arc length" will increase if your stickout is closer. And your arc length will decrease if you pull a longer stickout. All the while your constant voltage MIG welder will always try to maintain the voltage that is set on the machines controls.

The reason that the arc length changes is because there is a longer amount of welding wire that is sticking out of the contact tip that makes extra resistance. Since resistance increases the welder has to adjust too and this causes the arc length of plasma to shorten.

So usually you want to maintain a 5/8 inch stickout. If you get farther away from the weld puddle (1 inch or more stickout) the arc will lose arc length and spudder and pop.
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Old 04-17-2007, 05:02 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woody's wheel works
Todd,,,,came across your thread and just finished reading it start to finish,,,
just want to give you ,,,,and,,,for sharing your wisdoms,,,

keep your cool,,,,especially with the devil's advocates,,,i love 'em,,they keep me on my toes and often provide another point of view
+1 as well Todd. I don't envy you your stage, but I admire you taking it.

I think that arc length is, in some ways, more relevant than arc voltage.

Since arc length determines the method of metal filler transfer, you know, short circuit or spray, etc., then that particular arc length must be maintained to ensure a desired method of filler metal transfer.

And for a particular arc length, a length necessary to maintain the method of filler transfer, the shield gas remains as the direct and sole 'selector' of arc voltage.

- Jim

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Old 04-17-2007, 05:34 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woody's wheel works
Todd,,,,came across your thread and just finished reading it start to finish,,,
just want to give you ,,,,and,,,for sharing your wisdoms,,,

keep your cool,,,,especially with the devil's advocates,,,i love 'em,,they keep me on my toes and often provide another point of view

thanks,,,woody
Thanks for your words of encouragement Woody.

I would rather help my fellow Advriders then have a pissing contest. I hope I can keep my cool. As long as I am having fun and I can help someone out with welding I will keep it up.
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Old 04-17-2007, 06:36 PM   #157
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Poolside and 640,

Thanks for the great insight.

Chris
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Old 04-17-2007, 07:23 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KTM640Dakar

So usually you want to maintain a 5/8 inch stickout. If you get farther away from the weld puddle (1 inch or more stickout) the arc will lose arc length and spudder and pop.
When I hear that popping sound I always ask if they want some butter to go with the popcorn. Sorry about that.. Im a certified welder of 27 years and love all the info here. I think this could be my new place to come and read and learn. I work in a fab shop and love to fix things folks say cant be fixed, most of the time. Im sure I will have some questions for the group from time to time. I have a mig and a tig welder at home so I tinker when I can.
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Old 04-18-2007, 06:56 PM   #159
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Thanks for the great thread. Even though I don't have a welder it's a good read.
Here's a question.
I was told by some welding supply shops not to buy a rig from the big box stores (home depot, etc.) because they are not the same quality as the rigs they sell and they can't (won't) service them because parts are not available. That's why you pay less. Is this true or just a bunch of hooey to get me to buy at their shop?
At this point I probably would buy at a welding supply shop just for the advice and service.
Just wondering.
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Old 04-18-2007, 07:59 PM   #160
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Service and advise is worth the couple of extra bucks you'd pay, by far. My local guy is great, he's saved me far more $$ by giving good advise than I'd have ever saved at the box stores or on the net. If there's any question he can't answer, he gets on the phone to his parent company's experts, their shop techs, other local weders that deal with him, or Miller's tech experts. The guy is like a pitbull when presented with a problem...he never lets go. It doesn't matter whether the question is about a $2k machine or getting a pound of the correct filler metal. He just wants to help his customers produce the best welds possbile. That's money in the bank IMHO.

Shop around for the best dealer as well as the best machine. Somebody who's knowlegable and willing to spend the time with you will make life alot easier,

Chris
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Old 04-18-2007, 09:48 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vibro
Thanks for the great thread. Even though I don't have a welder it's a good read.
Here's a question.
I was told by some welding supply shops not to buy a rig from the big box stores (home depot, etc.) because they are not the same quality as the rigs they sell and they can't (won't) service them because parts are not available. That's why you pay less. Is this true or just a bunch of hooey to get me to buy at their shop?
At this point I probably would buy at a welding supply shop just for the advice and service.
Just wondering.
Telephone tech support and advice seems to be universally thorough from Red or Blue. And that is true regardless where you buy the product.

Many dealers have Ebay stores too. One that I remember is Indiana Oxygen http://stores.ebay.com/Welding-Supplies-from-IOC I know people that saved good money on TIG MIG and Plasma Cutters from them.

The part numbers and wiring diagrams for even decades old machines are usually online too and are download-able.

- Jim

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Old 04-18-2007, 10:38 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vibro
Thanks for the great thread. Even though I don't have a welder it's a good read.
+1. I don't have a welder and if I did I'm sure wouldn't be able to weld my way out of a paper bag. Still, I'd like to learn at some point and this thread is very interesting. Thanks for taking the time.
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Old 04-21-2007, 10:02 PM   #163
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A welding question not brought up yet:

If I have taught high school welding for 18 years, when should I retire and ride to each of the lower 48 states without seeing home?

My state teachers retirement says that I am half way. You?

(By the way, bliss can be attained with a student and a red MIG machine at 22v and 250ipm on a project he has $10,000 into. You get a kid 10k in debt and he doesnt miss much school........)

And can you help my kids get more than a regional gold in the JFL Foundation Awards program? The guy in Burley ID. is really nice, but I'd like to hand him his rear end on a plate of mild steel.



Thanks,


D
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Old 04-21-2007, 10:17 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vibro
Thanks for the great thread. Even though I don't have a welder it's a good read.
Here's a question.
I was told by some welding supply shops not to buy a rig from the big box stores (home depot, etc.) because they are not the same quality as the rigs they sell and they can't (won't) service them because parts are not available. That's why you pay less. Is this true or just a bunch of hooey to get me to buy at their shop?
At this point I probably would buy at a welding supply shop just for the advice and service.
Just wondering.
Big box stores impress me with thier prices on charcoal and paper towels. Tech questions should be handled by qualified people. Hell, those people cant tell me where the bathroom is.

Any good local welding supply shop (I use two good ones; Cal Weld and Fresno Oxygen/Barnes Welding Supply) should be able to help you. Stay away from the orange apron crowd when making capital purchases. Seriously.

The same goes for anything technical and/or expensive; or life threatening. Ever have a hitch snap off a trailer?
OK, you get the point, buy discount fertilizer at the Home Despot, and buy a red machine at a welding shop who will be able to sell you replacement contact tips and difusers without looking up their part numbers via a downed internet connection.
The welding guys dont carry shovels; and the orange apron crowd dont carry gas cylinders, and Mc Donalds doesnt sell taco sauce. See the logic??????

D
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Old 04-21-2007, 10:38 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dano 407
Big box stores impress me with thier prices on charcoal and paper towels. Tech questions should be handled by qualified people. Hell, those people cant tell me where the bathroom is.

OK, you get the point, buy discount fertilizer at the Home Despot, and buy a red machine at a welding shop who will be able to sell you replacement contact tips and difusers without looking up their part numbers via a downed internet connection.
Sure, don't ask the guy at Home Depot welding tech questions. What, you think people are that crazy?

But the Miller machines there, and from online sellers, are absolutely standard Miller fare. Replacement parts are just as well known to the brand-specific weld supply store.

Same is true for online sellers of Lincoln, Hobart, etc. And Harbor Freight sells Hobart welders and plasma cutters.

If you know what you want, and save $250 on it say, and get replacement or repair parts locally, seems like an ok deal to me.

- Jim

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