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Old 05-14-2011, 04:27 PM   #1996
fxstbiluigi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KTM640Dakar View Post
no. The chrome will just melt into your weld.
That is why you need to grind the chrome off for about an inch all around the weld area.
By not grinding, before you weld the joint, you are adding chrome to the metal and changing the composition and grade of the steel.
Probably won't make much difference in the application you are talking about,
But I wouldn't want someone welding on a frame, of mine, with that same disreguard for the intergity of the frame material.

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Old 05-15-2011, 12:47 PM   #1997
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thank you RD post 1995- one of my first stops was to the local welding suppy place. at that point i was starting to complie a very long, "what if" list. i asked and got a light weight fiberglass burn tarp/cloth. only 6 X6', but that was pleanty( along with lots of 4mmplywood (already on hand) to protect wooden stair treads and flooring. turns out that the fiberglass burn cloth was about the same price as the equivalent plywood!!! thanx again!!
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Old 05-15-2011, 02:30 PM   #1998
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fxstbiluigi View Post
That is why you need to grind the chrome off for about an inch all around the weld area.
By not grinding, before you weld the joint, you are adding chrome to the metal and changing the composition and grade of the steel.
Probably won't make much difference in the application you are talking about,
But I wouldn't want someone welding on a frame, of mine, with that same disreguard for the intergity of the frame material.
Posted by the same guy who removes the copper coating from his filler rod!
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Old 05-16-2011, 12:29 AM   #1999
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Originally Posted by Strong Bad View Post
Posted by the same guy who removes the copper coating from his filler rod!
OK since you invited.
When using TIG to weld carbon steel The weld puddle is clearly visible but have you ever noticed the little off color puddle that quivers and dances around?
That off color puddle is silicone, and other impurities, When you stop welding that lil puddle wil solidify and be a lil glassy deposit on top of the weld. usually.
If for some reason that lil puddle becomes trapped in the weld, as well as any other foriegn matter, it will be what is called an 'inclusion'. That weld will fail level 1 radiography!
So if you arn't concerned with x-ray testing and don't mind wrestiling with that pesky lil puddle of silicone then you don't need to bother with removing the coating.
Now about adding chrome to the weld.
The steel mill adds pure chrome under controlled conditions to the customers specs for the steel being produced .
Chrome enhances the the ability of the steel to be more tollerent of heat.
ie: boiler tube, steam pipe, steam drum, ect.
But now you add a small amout of chrome or other contaminants, by not not grinding to clean steel, and then weld you have changed the composition of the steel.
What ever is on the steel when it is welded is gonna be IN the weld. Be it paint, grease, what ever, and that will compromise the strenght of the weld If It ain't clean steel the weld is going to be compromised, and subject to failure from the begining!
Luggage racks and other things of that nature are not really as important as a frame or something that may cause serious injury.

fxstbiluigi screwed with this post 05-16-2011 at 01:23 AM
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Old 05-16-2011, 03:34 AM   #2000
David R
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Wink

I don't want to turn this into an internet argument, but if TIG filler wire has a copper wash on it for a reason, why would I remove it? I would just buy it with out the coating. There are deoxidizers in the wire to make the weld complete and strong. Welding with out the deoxidizers will make a crappy weak weld even if it looks good. The only steel the will have original strength for an autogenus (no filler) weld is stainless.

The chrome thing, If you leave it, I doubt you will see any difference in the weld. The chrome is only a couple thousandths thick.

David
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Old 05-16-2011, 07:33 AM   #2001
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Is argon heavier or lighter than air?
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Old 05-16-2011, 08:02 AM   #2002
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Heavier and dangerous in a confined space.

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Old 05-16-2011, 08:47 AM   #2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fxstbiluigi View Post
OK since you invited.
When using TIG to weld carbon steel The weld puddle is clearly visible but have you ever noticed the little off color puddle that quivers and dances around?
That off color puddle is silicone, and other impurities, When you stop welding that lil puddle wil solidify and be a lil glassy deposit on top of the weld. usually.
If for some reason that lil puddle becomes trapped in the weld, as well as any other foriegn matter, it will be what is called an 'inclusion'. That weld will fail level 1 radiography!
So if you arn't concerned with x-ray testing and don't mind wrestiling with that pesky lil puddle of silicone then you don't need to bother with removing the coating.
Now about adding chrome to the weld.
The steel mill adds pure chrome under controlled conditions to the customers specs for the steel being produced .
Chrome enhances the the ability of the steel to be more tollerent of heat.
ie: boiler tube, steam pipe, steam drum, ect.
But now you add a small amout of chrome or other contaminants, by not not grinding to clean steel, and then weld you have changed the composition of the steel.
What ever is on the steel when it is welded is gonna be IN the weld. Be it paint, grease, what ever, and that will compromise the strenght of the weld If It ain't clean steel the weld is going to be compromised, and subject to failure from the begining!
Luggage racks and other things of that nature are not really as important as a frame or something that may cause serious injury.
What you say is true except it ain't that simple. The autogenus weld is an excellent example. No one argues that the weld area shouldn't be as clean as possible, however chrome plate doesn't cause inclusions in the weld and the silicone that rises from the top of the puddle comes primarily from the base metal not from the copper plate on the filler rod or the filler rod itself. Please explain for the folks out there why when welding 4130 (aka: Chromemoly), 316 stainless steel (Chrome & Nickle) is the rod of choice, rod NOT 4130.

BTW, most chrome plating has a base layer of copper, a layer of nickle and then chrome. Like said, it for the most part it is not enough to make a difference in the weldment, and structural parts (like frames) are rarely chromed anyway. There is much more to welding than being able to make a good looking bead or being clean (both are expected).
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Old 05-16-2011, 09:28 AM   #2004
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Originally Posted by KTM640Dakar View Post
Power MIG 140 or 180 or 216 plus

I have used all of them with great sucess. The bigger the welder the thicker you can weld.
I wish you guys made something in the $1000 - $1200 range. The 216 looks very nice, just a big price jump up from the 180's and Miller 211.
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Old 05-16-2011, 10:24 AM   #2005
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[. Please explain for the folks out there why when welding 4130 (aka: Chromemoly), 316 stainless steel (Chrome & Nickle) is the rod of choice, rod NOT 4130.


I didn't say chrome would cause inclusions. I said it would alter the composition of the parent material.

Since 316 has a max. tensille strength just barely above the min. tensile for 4130 about the only reason I can think of for using 316 would be for corrosion resistance.
E70s2 is the recomended fill wire for 4130 and ER80-D2 can also be used.
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Old 05-16-2011, 10:46 AM   #2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fxstbiluigi View Post
[. Please explain for the folks out there why when welding 4130 (aka: Chromemoly), 316 stainless steel (Chrome & Nickle) is the rod of choice, rod NOT 4130.


I didn't say chrome would cause inclusions. I said it would alter the composition of the parent material.

Since 316 has a max. tensille strength just barely above the min. tensile for 4130 about the only reason I can think of for using 316 would be for corrosion resistance.
E70s2 is the recomended fill wire for 4130 and ER80-D2 can also be used.
The reason for the question was to show that the composition of the filler rod and the desired effect are not always intuitive. You imply that ANYTHING that may get introduced into the puddle other than an identical material to the base metal is going to create problems. That is not accurate. Even you provide information that the recommended filler rod for 4130 is not 4130. You are the only person I've ever heard of that promotes the removal of the copper coating from filler rod due to contamination issues. Grind the chrome way if you wish, but not doing so is not wrong.
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Old 05-16-2011, 12:00 PM   #2007
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The reason for the question was to show that the composition of the filler rod and the desired effect are not always intuitive. You imply that ANYTHING that may get introduced into the puddle other than an identical material to the base metal is going to create problems. That is not accurate. Even you provide information that the recommended filler rod for 4130 is not 4130. You are the only person I've ever heard of that promotes the removal of the copper coating from filler rod due to contamination issues. Grind the chrome way if you wish, but not doing so is not wrong.
And you're sittn there trying to tell me and the rest of the world that simply because you haven't heard of or seen some different way of doing something that it is wrong or a waste of time ?
I know where you can find a lot of weldors that regularly make x-ray quality welds (have to thier job depends on it) and every one ofem is gonna clean the protective coating off of the fill wire.
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Old 05-16-2011, 12:31 PM   #2008
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Originally Posted by 3bangin View Post
Heavier and dangerous in a confined space.

Bob
Dangerous how?
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Old 05-16-2011, 12:39 PM   #2009
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Dangerous how?
It will displace the breatheable air in the confined space and will not support life and being colorless and odorless it is hard to detect without proper testing equipment.
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Old 05-16-2011, 12:52 PM   #2010
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Dangerous how?
It can fill your lungs and you can suffocate.

It will displace the air then you get NO Oxygen.


To the other guy....
IF the coating on the TIG filler was not supposed to be there, then it would not. I am not smarter than the folks that make the rod. I am a certified welder and do play one at work (own a welding shop).
I say no more on this subject.

David
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