ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Gear > The Garage
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 07-21-2007, 04:57 PM   #211
KLboxeR
Back in the game again
 
Joined: Jan 2006
Location: Chester County, PA
Oddometer: 3,650
Quote:
Originally Posted by GSWayne
I was shortening my centerstand, and after grinding off the paint for about a inch around the area I was going to weld, and then wiping it down with Laquer thinner for good measure, I was having trouble TIG welding it. The puddle seemed to occasionally bubble and spark. I was using ER70S-2 welding rod, a Weldcraft WP-20 torch, 13N09 cup, a 1/16" Lanthanated tungsten, 15 CFH of Argon, a Thermal-Arc 185TSW set for 100A max current, DCEN and foot pedal control. Test welds on 1/8" mild steel seemed to be fine. It would seem like some kind of contamination but I don't know from what. Any clues as to what I was doing wrong?
Did you have a hole somewhere to vent gasses? (I'm assuming it was a tubular part you were welding) Is there water trapped in the part causing steam to contaminate? Did you clean the inside of the tubing (If it is tubing)

Other suggestions would be to raise or lower the AR flow. Too high may be causing turbulence and allowing contamination or too low cfh will cause obvious problems. Did you try re-grinding the electrode in case it's been contaminated?

That's what jumps to mind anyhow.
Chris
KLboxeR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2007, 05:12 PM   #212
GSWayne
Old Guy nOOb
 
GSWayne's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Santa Barbara
Oddometer: 2,990
Quote:
Originally Posted by KLboxeR
Did you have a hole somewhere to vent gasses? (I'm assuming it was a tubular part you were welding) Is there water trapped in the part causing steam to contaminate? Did you clean the inside of the tubing (If it is tubing)

Other suggestions would be to raise or lower the AR flow. Too high may be causing turbulence and allowing contamination or too low cfh will cause obvious problems. Did you try re-grinding the electrode in case it's been contaminated?

That's what jumps to mind anyhow.
Chris
Thanks for the quick feedback. There shouldn't be water in the tubing. They were never wet and I saw no sign of rust. I did sand the area near the weld on the inside of the tubing, but not real thoroughly. I also wiped it down with laquer thinner to remove any traces of cutting oil (though there could have been some deep down in the tube that I couldn't get to. I did try regrinding the electrode a couple of times because the splatter was definitely contaminating it. I didn't have a vent hole, but the problem showed up before the weld was even close to being complete.

When I did practice welds on some steel tubing I bought to practive on, they were much better than the ones on the center stand, so it seems more likely contamination, than gas flow issues, but I'll tinker with that next time I am having trouble.

It is typical to drill a hole in tubing assemblies and weld it shut at the end of the welding process? I didn't see any sign of this on the centerstand as it was orginally built with the tubes all sealed.
__________________
It isn't the conditions its the decisions

Don't bring a motorcycle to a car fight
GSWayne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2007, 07:20 PM   #213
KLboxeR
Back in the game again
 
Joined: Jan 2006
Location: Chester County, PA
Oddometer: 3,650
Quote:
Originally Posted by GSWayne

It is typical to drill a hole in tubing assemblies and weld it shut at the end of the welding process? I didn't see any sign of this on the centerstand as it was orginally built with the tubes all sealed.
Yes, it is typical to drill a small vent hole then tack it shut and grind to finish. You probably wouldn't see it on a factory assembly because they finish it off or robotics and such may preclude the need. If the part fit-up is really good, you may have enough of a seal to cause problems right from the start. Condensed water could be present in the part even though it was sealed frm new. I might cut it again and do a more thorough cleaning internally. If you still have trouble, try it with stick or MIG because part of the problem could be the inability to back purge the weld with Ar for the TIG weld.

Chris
KLboxeR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2007, 07:29 PM   #214
KLboxeR
Back in the game again
 
Joined: Jan 2006
Location: Chester County, PA
Oddometer: 3,650
Might want to double check cup size, electrode extension and ground while you're at it. Make sure you're not picking up contaminants from the wheel yuo're using to grind the electrode as well.......just some other thoughts.

Chris
KLboxeR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2007, 08:33 PM   #215
GSWayne
Old Guy nOOb
 
GSWayne's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Santa Barbara
Oddometer: 2,990
Quote:
Originally Posted by KLboxeR
Might want to double check cup size, electrode extension and ground while you're at it. Make sure you're not picking up contaminants from the wheel yuo're using to grind the electrode as well.......just some other thoughts.

Chris
Thanks for your ideas.

My electrode extension is about .25".

The cup size is about 3/8" diameter. I used a fairly small one because I had some fairly tight places to get into because the tubes met at an angle less than 90 degrees.

I checked my ground connection with an ohm meter because I was concerned about it, before I started welding and measured it <0.1 ohms.

I have been using the side of the grinding wheel to sharpen the electrode (to avoid contamination and to get straight scratches along the length of the rod) and then clean it off with 320 grit Silicon Carbide paper. I have not heard of using sandpaper on electrodes, but I could not justify a dedicated diamond wheel for the small amount of welding I do.
__________________
It isn't the conditions its the decisions

Don't bring a motorcycle to a car fight
GSWayne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2007, 11:01 PM   #216
LoFlow
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Feb 2005
Location: Kitsap
Oddometer: 961
Are you Just rewelding the foot on or welding the tubes together? If welding the tubes together I always make a small sleeve to go between the tubes. That gives your joint a good weld backing.

As KL says drill a small hole in the bottom of the foot to let the gases out. You will be surprised the differance that will make. Sometimes I get lazy and don't and I always regret it. Also if you get a stubborn porosity hole you can try a little stainless rod for that spot on a non critical joint. bye
LoFlow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2007, 09:44 AM   #217
GSWayne
Old Guy nOOb
 
GSWayne's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Santa Barbara
Oddometer: 2,990
The joint is between the vertical tubes and the U shaped tube. I tested it on the bike, and in spite of the crummy welds it seems secure enough, with lots of bouncing and rocking etc. I guess the welds are not that highly stressed because of the geometry.

In the process of getting the tubes to fit, I ground away enough material so I needed to add the 1/4" feet on the bottom to get the length right.


Thanks for the help, I am sure I will be asking more questions on my next welding project.
__________________
It isn't the conditions its the decisions

Don't bring a motorcycle to a car fight
GSWayne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2007, 02:39 PM   #218
crooked roads
I'm back
 
Joined: May 2007
Location: Crooked road va.
Oddometer: 848
alloy used?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KTM640Dakar
Do you have a question about welding? How to weld a material or which welding process to use? MIG, TIG, stick, oxyfuel?

I will tell you up front that I am a Welding Engineer for The Lincoln Electric Company so if I sound bias to my company's products, well.. I am.

So tell us about your welding project?
What is aluminum type/alloy used in most casted bike parts???? Suzuki, honda.....
crooked roads is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2007, 09:12 PM   #219
KTM640Dakar OP
Motorsick
 
KTM640Dakar's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2004
Location: Oxbow Lake
Oddometer: 2,053
Quote:
Originally Posted by GSWayne
I was shortening my centerstand, and after grinding off the paint for about a inch around the area I was going to weld, and then wiping it down with Laquer thinner for good measure, I was having trouble TIG welding it. The puddle seemed to occasionally bubble and spark. I was using ER70S-2 welding rod, a Weldcraft WP-20 torch, 13N09 cup, a 1/16" Lanthanated tungsten, 15 CFH of Argon, a Thermal-Arc 185TSW set for 100A max current, DCEN and foot pedal control. Test welds on 1/8" mild steel seemed to be fine. It would seem like some kind of contamination but I don't know from what. Any clues as to what I was doing wrong?
Try using a gas flow rate of 25CFH of 100% Argon. Porosity is usually caused by contaminants like paint, oils, or water. Or your shielding gas is not protecting the molten metal.

Turn off any fans in the room and keep drafts away from where you are welding. Sometimes a gas regulator will give you a false reading. I would recommend a flow meter with the ball indicator for the best accuracy in gas regulation. Or if you are in doubt turn your gas flow up. Just be carefull not to crank up the flow rate too high or it will stir up the air around the weld and that will cause porosity problems also.
__________________
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

It is not the destination, it's the journey.
KTM640Dakar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2007, 09:26 PM   #220
KTM640Dakar OP
Motorsick
 
KTM640Dakar's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2004
Location: Oxbow Lake
Oddometer: 2,053
Quote:
Originally Posted by crooked roads
What is aluminum type/alloy used in most casted bike parts???? Suzuki, honda.....
It depends on the part and the casting process that is used. If it is sand cast, or diecast, etc.

One thing for sure most cast aluminum parts have a tendency to have many pores throughout the microstructure. These pores tend to show themselves when you remelt the casting and the pores bubble out of the weld depending on the density of the casting.

In most cases cast aluminum will be more difficult to weld then an extruded or solid billet of aluminum. If the casting can be welded you can use a 4043 or 5356 series aluminum filler metal.

Here is a great book on Aluminum welding

http://content.lincolnelectric.com/p...ture/c8100.pdf
__________________
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

It is not the destination, it's the journey.
KTM640Dakar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2007, 07:35 PM   #221
KTM640Dakar OP
Motorsick
 
KTM640Dakar's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2004
Location: Oxbow Lake
Oddometer: 2,053
Here is information on a Motorsports welding school.

It is popular with NASCAR teams and those who want to learn how to weld.

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/focus...ool/school.asp
__________________
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

It is not the destination, it's the journey.
KTM640Dakar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2007, 07:20 AM   #222
JDLuke
Ravening for delight
 
JDLuke's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2007
Location: New Jersey
Oddometer: 8,644
Hey, KTM640Dakar, thanks for doing this. I do a (little) bit of hobby welding on my 3200HD, and it's good to have more information available.

My question goes kind of goes back to some of the earlier posts in this thread, regarding extension cords and the like. I guess my basic question is: If I were to take heavy AC BX-protected wire, and build an 'extension cord' out of it, where would the drawbacks be for powering my welder?

I ask this because as it stands right now, I have a circuit breaker in my basement, tied to the mains. About 45 or 50 feet from this, at the end of another heavy gauge cable is a subpanel in my garage, with the 20 amp circuit breaker for the welder. However, it would, so far as I know, have been quite possible to make it a direct 50 foot run from the main panel to the outlet, right?

So how much harm would there be in having 30 or 40 feet of, say, 12 gauge solid-core wire in between one outlet and an extension outlet?

The REAL reason I want to know is that I have a swing set with steel tube legs in the backyard, maybe 40 feet from my garage. Due to an unfortunate landscaping incident, one of the legs has a big chunk of metal missing, and I'd like to weld a sleeve over it... I've been extremely reluctant to even try using an extension cord, but I can't help thinking about the fact that there are many hundreds of yards of copper wire between my outlet and the actual power source already.
__________________
Why did I drink all of the ingredients for vomit?
"Used to be Man vs. Nature.. then Man vs. Space.. then Man vs. the Moon. Now it's Man vs. Food" - Dalar
"you cannot reason a person out of something they were not reasoned into." - Jonathan Swift
JDLuke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2007, 01:54 PM   #223
furiousfart
Gnarly Adventurer
 
furiousfart's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2006
Location: Putney VT
Oddometer: 215
You can allways go to the homedepot or local supply house and get some SO cord. SOW is listed for wet and damp locations and is a heavy duty use cord. You said it is a 20amp breaker, then get a #10 cord, if there is going to be a signifigant length to the cord and then get a set of ends that match your current set up and you are good to go.
The AC really isn't designed to be used as an extension cord outside or in, plus being solid it won't like to wind and unwind too much.
furiousfart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2007, 01:59 PM   #224
JDLuke
Ravening for delight
 
JDLuke's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2007
Location: New Jersey
Oddometer: 8,644
FuriousBrokenWind,

I guess what I'm trying to do here is determine where the dividing line between sensible and stupid is.

If I were to bury some conduit a couple of feet underground and pull wire through it, from the garage to over near the swing set, and install an outlet, that would be perfectly OK, right? But an 'extension cord' isn't OK... My thinking is that at SOME point, an extension has got to be heavy enough to carry the required current, and that point should roughly correspond to when the area of the wires equals the area of the wire one would bury if hard-wiring a circuit.

It sounds like the cable you're talking about is more like what I had my electrician put on my 220V table saw when he was reworking my basement wiring. Heavy gauge cord with thick black insulation. Essentially I'd be custom-fabricating a to-spec extension?
__________________
Why did I drink all of the ingredients for vomit?
"Used to be Man vs. Nature.. then Man vs. Space.. then Man vs. the Moon. Now it's Man vs. Food" - Dalar
"you cannot reason a person out of something they were not reasoned into." - Jonathan Swift
JDLuke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2007, 09:53 PM   #225
KTM640Dakar OP
Motorsick
 
KTM640Dakar's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2004
Location: Oxbow Lake
Oddometer: 2,053
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDLuke
Hey, KTM640Dakar, thanks for doing this. I do a (little) bit of hobby welding on my 3200HD, and it's good to have more information available.

My question goes kind of goes back to some of the earlier posts in this thread, regarding extension cords and the like. I guess my basic question is: If I were to take heavy AC BX-protected wire, and build an 'extension cord' out of it, where would the drawbacks be for powering my welder?

I ask this because as it stands right now, I have a circuit breaker in my basement, tied to the mains. About 45 or 50 feet from this, at the end of another heavy gauge cable is a subpanel in my garage, with the 20 amp circuit breaker for the welder. However, it would, so far as I know, have been quite possible to make it a direct 50 foot run from the main panel to the outlet, right?

So how much harm would there be in having 30 or 40 feet of, say, 12 gauge solid-core wire in between one outlet and an extension outlet?

The REAL reason I want to know is that I have a swing set with steel tube legs in the backyard, maybe 40 feet from my garage. Due to an unfortunate landscaping incident, one of the legs has a big chunk of metal missing, and I'd like to weld a sleeve over it... I've been extremely reluctant to even try using an extension cord, but I can't help thinking about the fact that there are many hundreds of yards of copper wire between my outlet and the actual power source already.
What I really would avoid is the typical extention cord that is made out of small strand copper wire that is too light. A good extention cord would be the same copper conductor that you would use to wire a house that utillizes solid copper as a conductor.

The real reason that an extension cord is a problem is that most homes use 15 or 20 ampere circuit breakers and when you turn a welder to it's maximum output the current draw required for the welder to give you max output may exceed your circuit and trip the breaker. Adding an extension cord to a welder that is undersized will trip the breaker sooner due to the extra resistance of the extension cord.

Of course you can still try it and the worst thing that will happen is your circuit breaker will keep tripping off and cut the power.

I do have an extension cord for my 230V MIG welder. It is made out of heavy copper wire that is heavier than my in house wiring. At 230V a 30 Amp breaker is perfect for my welder and I have never blown the circuit. The extention is about 30 feet long. The longer the cord the bigger the conductor needs to be.

http://www.interfacebus.com/Copper_Wire_AWG_SIze.html
__________________
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

It is not the destination, it's the journey.
KTM640Dakar is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 02:31 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014