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Old 04-03-2007, 09:43 PM   #106
makinwaves
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlbyme
Let me guess, you are an engineer of some sort too?

As such, if it can't be measured, it doesn't exist?
Does anyone else find it odd how resistant some people are to accepting a performance based standard as a means to evaluating clothing? I mean, for fook's sake people, we do it all the time. Consider:

Car performance:
  • Speed - we measure how fast it goes 0-60 mph or 1/4 mile.
  • Fuel efficiency - we measure how much gas is consumed in gallons / mile.
  • Power - we measure horsepower and torque.
The computer you're typing on right now:
  • Speed - processor and RAM
  • Data transfer - hard drive and CD/DVD bits/second transfer rate
  • Screen resolution - how many dots per inch
Steel:
  • Tensile strength - the amount of tension before it breaks.
  • Hardness - how much pressure is required to scratch it
  • Elasticity - how far can it bend
We use these accepted performance measures each and every day as a means to evaluate products on a consistent and common basis! So why can't the same be done with clothing??? The principles are simple, how much abrasion force is required to break through the material, how much force is required to tear it, how much energy is absorbed by the armour? It's not rocket science!

With this common basis, you can then debate the finer and more subjective points. For a car, this one looks better, or that one comes with leather, or that one has heated seats, this one can tow a boat and that one only seats two....

So on this forum, where motorcycle products are constantly compared against each other, you'd think that a common basis for measuring performance would be welcomed with open arms!

We've all spent tonnes of money on gear, and likely will be spending tonnes more in the years to come. I for one am glad I can buy a product that is guaranteed to meet a minimum standard! Rather than the money I've wasted on products that I thought were great at the time, only to watch or have them disintegrate on me...

By the way....I'm probably the only one on this forum (in North America??) that owns both Motoport kevlar and the Halvarssons safety gear. Anybody want to know how they compare??
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Old 04-03-2007, 10:22 PM   #107
Bitt
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Go for it....

Quote:
Originally Posted by makinwaves
By the way....I'm probably the only one on this forum (in North America??) that owns both Motoport kevlar and the Halvarssons safety gear. Anybody want to know how they compare??
Also I PM'd you and never got a response as to a link where you bought your Halvarrsson's - all searches and email I have tried got me nowhere. I emailed shops overseas and asked shipping and exchange info. and got nothing back.

While you are giving us your spin on these 2 - I would be interested in kowing more about the safety vest on HOT days and if I am traveling through the full range of tempatures do I need to pack all those layers along instead of just mesh and a liner with a Gerbings for the cold parts. Without seeing the Halvarrssons it just seems like much more bulk to pack on a trip. Thanks for your input.
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Old 04-03-2007, 10:45 PM   #108
makinwaves
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitt
Also I PM'd you and never got a response as to a link where you bought your Halvarrsson's - all searches and email I have tried got me nowhere. I emailed shops overseas and asked shipping and exchange info. and got nothing back.

While you are giving us your spin on these 2 - I would be interested in kowing more about the safety vest on HOT days and if I am traveling through the full range of tempatures do I need to pack all those layers along instead of just mesh and a liner with a Gerbings for the cold parts. Without seeing the Halvarrssons it just seems like much more bulk to pack on a trip. Thanks for your input.
www.biker-land.de and click the box in the centre for their online store. It's a german company but you can click on the british flag in the top right to get the site in English. The staff all speak english as well. Here's the thread in which it's discussed further http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199979

The trick is not to use google.com if you want to look up stuff in europe. You'll get hits, but not nearly as much as you'll get if you use google.co.uk or google.de (google for Britain, google for germany).

I don't have any PMs from you in my inbox. Can you send it again?
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Old 04-03-2007, 11:18 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makinwaves
We use these accepted performance measures each and every day as a means to evaluate products on a consistent and common basis! So why can't the same be done with clothing???
Waynes stuff is tested to a standard as well (at least the fabric and armor is, if not the final piece). It's a different standard though. Therein lies the rub. The CE folks deem his tests as not representative and Wayne feels the same about CE. It seems the only way to breach this impass is to buy some of Wayne's gear and send it to Paul V. for testing. Perhaps a thread could be started for this. If someone wants to handle this (I don't have the time) I'll offer up $50 to start the ball rolling.

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Old 04-04-2007, 06:21 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soloyosh
Waynes stuff is tested to a standard as well (at least the fabric and armor is, if not the final piece). It's a different standard though. Therein lies the rub. The CE folks deem his tests as not representative and Wayne feels the same about CE. It seems the only way to breach this impass is to buy some of Wayne's gear and send it to Paul V. for testing. Perhaps a thread could be started for this. If someone wants to handle this (I don't have the time) I'll offer up $50 to start the ball rolling.

Cheers
Brett
Brett,
It's not the CE people in general - it's our not-so-good friend l2illwill. I don't think the CE people really worry about any of this. Paul V has labeled Wayne's stuff as buyer beware - maybe towards the top of that category - which seems like a backhanded slam to me. Since it hasn't been tested - that's all it means - not tested. Period.

All anecdotal evidence I've seen about Wayne's stuff says it does what it's supposed to. I have yet to hear of a situation where Wayne's gear failed. Do you or anyone else have credible evidence to the contrary?

Since his stuff is not CE, but evidence says it does the job - doesn't that mean that CE is not the end-all as far as decent gear?

That is the difficulty. My impression is that Paul V had and/or has an interest in some of the CE standard gear, and/or development of the CE standard. Of course he would support that.

Unless objective test evidence can be shown, there is only real world history. Wayne does have test evidence - it's just not the same as CE.

I have some gear with CE armor. I also have some Motoport gear. If I had to crash, I'd want to wear the Motoport.

all the best,

Mike
Former aerospace quality control manager
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Old 04-04-2007, 07:40 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglemike
Brett,
It's not the CE people in general - it's our not-so-good friend l2illwill. I don't think the CE people really worry about any of this. Paul V has labeled Wayne's stuff as buyer beware - maybe towards the top of that category - which seems like a backhanded slam to me. Since it hasn't been tested - that's all it means - not tested. Period.
Agreed. Though I don't think that Paul was slamming the Motoport stuff. Rather than CE he labeled it "ce" (caveat emptor) meaning exatctly what you said, not tested to CE but potentially passing.

Quote:
All anecdotal evidence I've seen about Wayne's stuff says it does what it's supposed to. I have yet to hear of a situation where Wayne's gear failed. Do you or anyone else have credible evidence to the contrary?
Nope.

Quote:
Since his stuff is not CE, but evidence says it does the job - doesn't that mean that CE is not the end-all as far as decent gear?
Exactly my point. What better way to show the flaws in the CE standard than by having your gear tested. If it doesn't pass then folks like Paul, Wayne and others need to get together and figure out why the test results are not aligned with the real-world evidence. Wayne would after-all own the results and data so it would be up to him to make them public. If it does pass then you've got another leaf in the laurel.

Quote:
That is the difficulty. My impression is that Paul V had and/or has an interest in some of the CE standard gear, and/or development of the CE standard. Of course he would support that.
I differ here. I see Paul V as a real resource. He attempted to sell nothing; he offered only information on the standards.

Quote:
Unless objective test evidence can be shown, there is only real world history. Wayne does have test evidence - it's just not the same as CE.
Exactly. Im not saying Wayne's evidence is garbage, there is just no real way to compare it to the CE standard which seems to have the momentum to be the accepted standard.

Quote:
I have some gear with CE armor. I also have some Motoport gear. If I had to crash, I'd want to wear the Motoport.
To be clear, CE armor does not a CE garment make. My Firstgear Kili4 has some of the best armor I've seen (CE) but I have no confidence in the jacket itself in a get-off.

Quote:
all the best,

Mike
Former aerospace quality control manager
Cheers
Brett
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Old 04-04-2007, 12:36 PM   #112
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Hi,

Me again, Mr. Lowside at 50mph in Motoport kevlar mesh. A quick update:
  • Gear is at Motoport for repair and alternations: repairing damage, adding reflective material on the sleeves, adding hip pads, moving knee pads up 1-2 inches, widening legs to create the option to accomodate hard knee pads and Sidi Crossfires, 21" circumference at the top.
  • Estimate to repair the VStrom is...high, so I'm waiting to see what the insurance will do. In the meantime, scheming to replace the bike with a 950 .
  • I crashed on my friggin' bicycle on Saturday. After surviving a very intense 2hr ride with 200+ cyclists inches apart from each other, I hit a pothole unprepared about 400yds from my house, while coasting home. "You've GOT to be E-FING kidding me!" in my head as I went down. The top tube of the bike gave me a nice shot to the Boys on the way down, for a litteral kick in the nuts.
So, down to the Husky and XT225 while the VStrom gets straightened out, no street riding gear, tasty road rash on left elbow, knee, thigh and calf, seeping wounds all. Last night the leg was swollen and I feared cellulitis. Much better today.

I'm a sexy beast.
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Old 04-04-2007, 05:28 PM   #113
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Twowheels, why do you want to move the knee armor up 1-2 inches? Did your knee armor come above your knee at all, when sitting on your bike, before the crash? If you get it too far above the knee it will rub on your knee and make it very uncomfortable. The ideal spot is something like an inch and a half. You can tell by taking out the armor and putting it on your knee to see how it is supposed to work. I'd appreciate hearing how far over the knee the armor was before the crash. I read where you got a bump on your knee in the crash but I haven't seen info. on how the armor fit on the knee. Thanks.
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Old 04-05-2007, 11:42 AM   #114
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It was always too low, I just didn't get around to fixing it. The more important mod for me is tweaking the pants to fit my Crossfires. I plan to use the pants for dirt riding this summer. I will remove the stock armor and wear knee-shin guards.
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Old 04-05-2007, 12:00 PM   #115
ikonoklass
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makinwaves
By the way....I'm probably the only one on this forum (in North America??) that owns both Motoport kevlar and the Halvarssons safety gear. Anybody want to know how they compare??
I certainly would. I do love my Motoport gear, though.
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Old 04-05-2007, 04:41 PM   #116
GoNOW
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Shoot, even the DOT and Snell helmet testing standared have come under fire as of late.

Faberic, stiching, armor, and general construction all can affect how gear preforms in a crash.

Untill someone invents a scientific way of fully testing gear, and every manufacture submits samples, we will never know. Consumer Reports or MythBusters needs to get in the act.

As for Motoport and armor. I don't really care about the armor. I have broken bones before and they heal really well. Skin, now that is pain. Just the idea of loosing a large amount of skin. I am not sure I could handle that. I am sure everyone has seen this photo and read her story.


Next to lether, I feel Motoport has the best stuff to keep me from looking like this.
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Old 04-05-2007, 06:49 PM   #117
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Thumb

"To be clear, CE armor does not a CE garment make. My Firstgear Kili4 has some of the best armor I've seen (CE) but I have no confidence in the jacket itself in a get-off."


I low sided my KTM 950 on asphalt in a panic stop while wearing my Killi 4.0 and it held up very well. The road had a fresh coat of that black sealer and I came off the bike around 35 mph sliding on the lower back and right hip. The 3/4 jacket saved my skin, I was wearing plain jeans too. But, the Killi protected my but and right hip till it raised up, by that time I was sliding at a slow rate and the jeans didn't wear through much. I'm still wearing the Killi, very little damage on the right pocket. It held up much better than my Dads First Gear mesh jacket, his melted a bit when he went down at the same time. He actually was the cause of my panic stop in a corner while leaned over.

I don't leave home in jeans no more. The Killi protected me from any road rash at over 30 mph. It did not save me from the major bruising and 4 weeks of limping though. I should have had my riding pants on.

I don't want to test it at higher speeds, hope I never do!
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Old 04-05-2007, 11:33 PM   #118
makinwaves
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoNOW
Shoot, even the DOT and Snell helmet testing standared have come under fire as of late.

Faberic, stiching, armor, and general construction all can affect how gear preforms in a crash.

Untill someone invents a scientific way of fully testing gear, and every manufacture submits samples, we will never know. Consumer Reports or MythBusters needs to get in the act.

As for Motoport and armor. I don't really care about the armor. I have broken bones before and they heal really well. Skin, now that is pain. Just the idea of loosing a large amount of skin. I am not sure I could handle that. I am sure everyone has seen this photo and read her story.


Next to lether, I feel Motoport has the best stuff to keep me from looking like this.




Wow, hadn't seen that before. Here's the link on the speedfreaks site if anyone else hasn't seen it --> http://speedfreakinc.com/v1/index.ph...d=30&Itemid=45

Sad story and a good reminder... ATGATT!
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Old 04-06-2007, 10:56 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoNOW
Shoot, even the DOT and Snell helmet testing standared have come under fire as of late.

Faberic, stiching, armor, and general construction all can affect how gear preforms in a crash.

Untill someone invents a scientific way of fully testing gear, and every manufacture submits samples, we will never know. Consumer Reports or MythBusters needs to get in the act.

.
This is key. Why in the world should we believe that European testing is worth two shits?
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Old 04-06-2007, 11:44 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ikonoklass
This is key. Why in the world should we believe that European testing is worth two shits?
I feel that since the EU is actually putting forth an effort in this arena (motorcycle specific protective equipment) lends some credibility.

YMMV
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