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Old 12-05-2007, 10:35 AM   #2446
Gary in Indiana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chacifer
We're going to be (already are) kicking ourselves for this one. But, Theo is a good GM, and he's proven that he's ahead of the game on a number of things. I was upset when Nomar left, and he's done a whole lotta nothing since leaving. Pedro is another one, but really... we've been fine without him. I guess I want it both ways: continuity in players, that whole loyalty/longevity thing and I want to win, win, win!
I wasn't upset to see Nomar leave. He was poison in the clubhouse after we made the deal for A-Rod that MLB nixed. He had to go. Pedro was fragile physically and mentally and he's shown that since, too.

Theo has done a great job, overall, I agree. One the other hand, he's the one who brought us Eric Gagne. We'd have been better off selling that players we traded and NOT having Gagne ever don a uniform. Amazingly, we actually offered him arbitration last week. Fortunately, he was expected to decline and may already have done so. Ironically, he may be headed back to Texas now. That would be the epitome of a rental player. The only worse example that I recall was someone being sent elsewhere for a stretch run years ago for cash and the ever-popular "player to be named later.' I wish I could remember who it was or the teams involved.

Anyhow, when the season ended, he became the "player to be named later" in the trade for himself. That was the ultimate rental-cash for use for a given period of time.
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Old 12-05-2007, 11:11 AM   #2447
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Originally Posted by Gary in Indiana
Rich,

For the most part, I agree with you. I'd have been feeling just as you do if the Yankees had made the trade ("Better them than us"). I don't like giving up Ellsbury, although I just read where he hired Scott Boras as his new agent and I never look at that as a good sign.

Crisp was certainly tradeable and giving up a couple other bodies, including Lester was something I could live with. Putting Ellsbury into the mix was just too much for me.

Now that the Yankees are supposedly out of the running, we might be able to pull one back off the table, but I don't know. While I think Santana is worth maybe four or five more wins than Lester, I think giving up Ellsbury pretty much neutralizes most of that difference.

I wasn't thrilled with trading for Santana early on and said so here. The only thing that's happened since then is that we're giving up more than we were when I didn't like it initially.
I understand the Yankees need for Santana--great lefty pitcher. For the Yankees to win lefty pithcing is a must. The Sox supposedly had that already--perhaps they fear some thing they saw in Dice K. My point would be why? What did they gain--I don't think anyone knows that until you get to the season. If they win again, then it will be the move of a genius. If they don't repeat it will be an unneccessary move that demonstrates that Boston, even after two world series wins, is still maniacally focused on the Yankees.

The move by Detroit is impressive. Are they now the front runner? No, they didn't win last year. The Sox are the favorites, I would say--but the move to acquire Santana looks more like an attempt to trump the Yankees than to build a team. Let's see what it does. I am happy Hank is running the show.
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Old 12-05-2007, 11:14 AM   #2448
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Originally Posted by Skibum
Sox better do something. Tigers pickup of Cabrerra and Willis just upped the ante in the AL
Good move, but hold on there big guy, Dontrelle may not be the Dontrelle of old and Cabrerra needs to get on some slim fast before anyone is gonna place bets on the Tigers.
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Old 12-05-2007, 11:14 AM   #2449
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Originally Posted by RichBeBe
Wow...I think he will be a good solid star to say that someone who has 116 career ML at bats but a shoo-in for the Hall of Fame is some serious insanity from a Sox fan. Talk to us after he has maybe 5,000 at bats.
You heard it here first.
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Old 12-05-2007, 11:43 AM   #2450
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This just came out:

"The Red Sox still appear to be the most likely match for the Twins, but while the teams are maintaining a healthy dialogue, a source said they "are just not matching up right now."


Hmm, I am wondering if the Twins know they are being used.
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Old 12-05-2007, 12:23 PM   #2451
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Originally Posted by G-man17
Good move, but hold on there big guy, Dontrelle may not be the Dontrelle of old and Cabrerra needs to get on some slim fast before anyone is gonna place bets on the Tigers.
Cabrerra's only 24. His best years are ahead of him. Willis will be fine. He makes a good # 2 or 3 starter. You might want to consider the strain Santana's put on his arm with all those breaking balls.
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Old 12-05-2007, 12:27 PM   #2452
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Originally Posted by Skibum
Cabrerra's only 24. His best years are ahead of him. Willis will be fine. He makes a good # 2 or 3 starter. You might want to consider the strain Santana's put on his arm with all those breaking balls.
Huh???
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Old 12-05-2007, 12:46 PM   #2453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-man17
This just came out:

"The Red Sox still appear to be the most likely match for the Twins, but while the teams are maintaining a healthy dialogue, a source said they "are just not matching up right now."


Hmm, I am wondering if the Twins know they are being used.
Peter Gammons is saying that he believes that Santana will be pitching for the Twins in '08. There's a lot to be said for that line of thinking.

The Sox are now offering either a package built around Jonathon Lester OR Jacoby Ellsbury, but not both.

Ellsbury has said just this morning that he doesn't want to go to Minnesota. Also, he just signed with agent Scott Boras this week. While the Twins say they're OK with that, you know it can't be good news to them.

Even if the teams agree to terms for a trade, Santana will have to agree to an extension with the Sox for this deal to happen. Santana is going to want somewhere in the $18 million-$22 million a year on a long term extension but could command $25 million a year as a free agent next year. Another "player" in this whole thing is the MLB Player's Association, which is pressuing Santana to try to up the annual number he gets to as high of a figure as possible to once again raise the bar for salaries.

When you look at all of those factors, it sure sounds like Gammons could be right on the money, as he so often is.

Anothe factor coming into play now is that the Mets may be getting into this race for Santana, the odds of him calling Fenway home next season lessen further.

But, opinions vary. What's your take on this?
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Old 12-05-2007, 01:41 PM   #2454
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Originally Posted by Gary in Indiana
Peter Gammons is saying that he believes that Santana will be pitching for the Twins in '08. There's a lot to be said for that line of thinking.

The Sox are now offering either a package built around Jonathon Lester OR Jacoby Ellsbury, but not both.

Ellsbury has said just this morning that he doesn't want to go to Minnesota. Also, he just signed with agent Scott Boras this week. While the Twins say they're OK with that, you know it can't be good news to them.

Even if the teams agree to terms for a trade, Santana will have to agree to an extension with the Sox for this deal to happen. Santana is going to want somewhere in the $18 million-$22 million a year on a long term extension but could command $25 million a year as a free agent next year. Another "player" in this whole thing is the MLB Player's Association, which is pressuing Santana to try to up the annual number he gets to as high of a figure as possible to once again raise the bar for salaries.

When you look at all of those factors, it sure sounds like Gammons could be right on the money, as he so often is.

Anothe factor coming into play now is that the Mets may be getting into this race for Santana, the odds of him calling Fenway home next season lessen further.

But, opinions vary. What's your take on this?
Word from my buddies in NY is that the Mets are making a big push for Santana. That makes some sense.

I agree with everything you have Gary except the number--18 mill is not going to do it.

What I don't get is why the Twins entertained the Sox offer. The twins should have figured that the Yankees had more need and more reason to create a good deal for them. I don't believe Boston was ever that serious about having Santana pitch for them. Hey I might still be wrong--this certainly isn't over.
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Old 12-05-2007, 03:15 PM   #2455
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I, among many, many others, will be very sad to see Jacoby Elsbury leave. A very impressive young man and a shoo-in for the Hall of Fame one day.

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Old 12-05-2007, 08:20 PM   #2456
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It's not over, for sure. The Twins would like to keep Santana but I don't see that happening. I've read of Willie Randolph talking about their (the Mets')interest but it seems like he's just biding his time right now. The winter meetings will wrap up sometime tomorrow, at the end of the Rule 5 draft so it's highly unlikely anything will happen between now and then. Many people, most notably among them, again, Peter Gammons, are of the opinion that Santana will not be traded or that, if he is, it won't be until the opening of spring training. The Twins seem to be adamant about not feeling pressured to move Santana or lose him to free agency.

As I've said before, I'd like to see us move Crisp to Texas for one of their catching tandem there to give us a strong backup to Varitek and some help behind the plate just to take some of the load off of the Captain. I sincerely think a move like that could lengthen his career. Besides that, as I look at our current roster and that in Pawtuckett and even on down the line, I'm not seeing any backstop prospects that look like they'd be ready to take his spot whenever he does stop playing even if it's another few years down the road.

Bringing in someone now would give the younger pitchers the chance to get accustomed to them while 'Tek still did most of the catching and working with the younger arms. IF we got someone who could catch Wakefield (and I don't know if either Ranger catcher can), that would be a plus, too. It's not like you need to 'handle' Wake at all. You know what he's throwing 99% of the time. I've often wonder why we even bother with the formality of going through the signs. I almost laugh out loud when a runner gets to second and Mirabelli goes out to the mound to change signs so they won't be 'stolen' by the runner. I mean, come on... Who in the entire stadium doesn't know what's coming?

Another tradeable player under contract right now is Julian Tavares. With or without Santana, we really don't need him as a starter. We even left him off the post season roster. Of course, that was a huge mistake. We'd have been better off with him there wearing a jersey with "NOT GAGNE" across the back.

Nonetheless, Tavares could be a very serviceable pitcher for a lot of teams right now. We might be well served to try to send him somewhere for some minor league prospects or draft picks or both. I know it's tough to trade a bonafide major league pitcher for the 'blue sky' of minor leaguers and draft picks, but we have drafted so well and done such a good job of developing talent that it could be in our best interests.

Opinions vary, of course. What do you think would serve us best in seeking to move Crisp and/or Tavares?
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Old 12-05-2007, 09:43 PM   #2457
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Originally Posted by Gary in Indiana
It's not over, for sure. The Twins would like to keep Santana but I don't see that happening. I've read of Willie Randolph talking about their (the Mets')interest but it seems like he's just biding his time right now. The winter meetings will wrap up sometime tomorrow, at the end of the Rule 5 draft so it's highly unlikely anything will happen between now and then. Many people, most notably among them, again, Peter Gammons, are of the opinion that Santana will not be traded or that, if he is, it won't be until the opening of spring training. The Twins seem to be adamant about not feeling pressured to move Santana or lose him to free agency.

As I've said before, I'd like to see us move Crisp to Texas for one of their catching tandem there to give us a strong backup to Varitek and some help behind the plate just to take some of the load off of the Captain. I sincerely think a move like that could lengthen his career. Besides that, as I look at our current roster and that in Pawtuckett and even on down the line, I'm not seeing any backstop prospects that look like they'd be ready to take his spot whenever he does stop playing even if it's another few years down the road.

Bringing in someone now would give the younger pitchers the chance to get accustomed to them while 'Tek still did most of the catching and working with the younger arms. IF we got someone who could catch Wakefield (and I don't know if either Ranger catcher can), that would be a plus, too. It's not like you need to 'handle' Wake at all. You know what he's throwing 99% of the time. I've often wonder why we even bother with the formality of going through the signs. I almost laugh out loud when a runner gets to second and Mirabelli goes out to the mound to change signs so they won't be 'stolen' by the runner. I mean, come on... Who in the entire stadium doesn't know what's coming?

Another tradeable player under contract right now is Julian Tavares. With or without Santana, we really don't need him as a starter. We even left him off the post season roster. Of course, that was a huge mistake. We'd have been better off with him there wearing a jersey with "NOT GAGNE" across the back.

Nonetheless, Tavares could be a very serviceable pitcher for a lot of teams right now. We might be well served to try to send him somewhere for some minor league prospects or draft picks or both. I know it's tough to trade a bonafide major league pitcher for the 'blue sky' of minor leaguers and draft picks, but we have drafted so well and done such a good job of developing talent that it could be in our best interests.

Opinions vary, of course. What do you think would serve us best in seeking to move Crisp and/or Tavares?
The crazy thing for Boston right now is they don't seem focused on fixing their real issues. (As a NY fan I am not complaining.) Crisp is a great backup outfileder--he really can't be traded. No one will give Boston anything for Crisp. What they should do is trade J.D. Drew. He had a good WS, but please, the guy is completely overrated and will be a drag all season long. He might not come around next year if they make the playoffs--that was more luck than good. But Drew, because of the WS, has trade value if the Sox are willing to pick up a part of his salary.

As to Tavares, again, who actually wants him? I understand the desire to trade him, but to whom? 34 Years Old 5+ E.R.A., not many takers for that kind of talent-- and he is not all that cheap.

For Drew you could get some young talent and a back up catcher, but, again, he is suspect. Drew would be the guy I would focus on using as trade bait--because you really need to upgrade that position. The problem with winning the WS is everyone knows the only thing you really are willing to trade is the chaff.
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Old 12-06-2007, 08:52 PM   #2458
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Drew certainly had what can only be euphamistically described as "an off year" this past season. Fortunately, he did have a good post season, which might make him somewhat tradeable if he wasn't encumbered with four years at $14 million per remaining on his contract.

Tavarez, on the other hand, has just this 2008 season on paper. There are more than a few teams out there who would like to have a pitcher like him as a starter in maybe their 3 or 4 spot. He's been a very durable pitcher who pitched better when used regularly.

Tavarez wants to start and he's a better starter than long reliever and set up man, which is how we used him. However slim his chances were for a spot in the Sox rotation next season, they got even thinner this week. Tito just saw Wake in Boston and said he wasn't on any kind of restrictions at all and looked to be in great shape.

With Beckett, Schilling, Masuzaka, Lester and Wakefield in place (not to mention Buchholz looking to get another no, no in 2008), Tavarez won't start for the Sox unless injuries become an issue. He can be an effective starter in this league, just not in Boston right now.

I think that, along with his contract makes him very tradeable. Don't get me wrong, I'm not expecting the Twins to call and ask for him instead of Lester for Santana, but he's easily worth a couple draft picks and prospect or two. Sometimes the no name people turn out to be the best part of a trade.

Remember, just a couple years ago we took a journeyman infielder with a bloated salary who we didn't want in order to get the player we wanted. Taking him and his salary allowed us to close that deal. The player we wanted has worked out great for us and was worth taking the salary dump to get him.

Funny thing, though, last year that salary dump player was MVP of the World Series for us. It's not a science. Everyone thought that us signing Gagne locked up the AL East race at the trade deadline. It almost did...for the Yankees! No one in baseball saw that meltdown coming.
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Old 12-07-2007, 06:19 PM   #2459
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Originally Posted by Gary in Indiana
Drew certainly had what can only be euphamistically described as "an off year" this past season. Fortunately, he did have a good post season, which might make him somewhat tradeable if he wasn't encumbered with four years at $14 million per remaining on his contract.

Tavarez, on the other hand, has just this 2008 season on paper. There are more than a few teams out there who would like to have a pitcher like him as a starter in maybe their 3 or 4 spot. He's been a very durable pitcher who pitched better when used regularly.

Tavarez wants to start and he's a better starter than long reliever and set up man, which is how we used him. However slim his chances were for a spot in the Sox rotation next season, they got even thinner this week. Tito just saw Wake in Boston and said he wasn't on any kind of restrictions at all and looked to be in great shape.

With Beckett, Schilling, Masuzaka, Lester and Wakefield in place (not to mention Buchholz looking to get another no, no in 2008), Tavarez won't start for the Sox unless injuries become an issue. He can be an effective starter in this league, just not in Boston right now.

I think that, along with his contract makes him very tradeable. Don't get me wrong, I'm not expecting the Twins to call and ask for him instead of Lester for Santana, but he's easily worth a couple draft picks and prospect or two. Sometimes the no name people turn out to be the best part of a trade.

Remember, just a couple years ago we took a journeyman infielder with a bloated salary who we didn't want in order to get the player we wanted. Taking him and his salary allowed us to close that deal. The player we wanted has worked out great for us and was worth taking the salary dump to get him.

Funny thing, though, last year that salary dump player was MVP of the World Series for us. It's not a science. Everyone thought that us signing Gagne locked up the AL East race at the trade deadline. It almost did...for the Yankees! No one in baseball saw that meltdown coming.
Gary I don't disagree that Tavarez has value, but not as a trade from the Sox. Having been a lifelong Yankee fan I understand what it is to watch a front runner. No matter what the Tigers and Yankees have done this offseason, and I think the moves both team have made are excellent, Boston will be the favorite for a repeat in '08. (Just so we are clear that pains me to no end.) That said, now you will really see what kind of GM Theo is. No one is going to do anything to help the Sox get stronger and that means taking players off their hands or giving them players that fill gaps. Taverez and Crisp are weak spots for the Sox. It is not that either is a terrible player, its that you know that any trade that involves their passage to another team will most likely make the Sox stronger still, therefore--NFW. Drew is a different story--if Boston is willing to consume some of his salary. He is a lifetime .284 hitter with 173 HRs over 9 years. His stats aren't impressive --especially when you consider his salary, 14.4M in 2007. Anyway, I don't believe he can handle playing under the spotlights of a Boston or NY. Also, Boston has serveral outfield prospects in their farm system and Ellsbury can play either position.

As to the Santana mess I can't figure out who was blanking whom here. It seems like the Twins were just trying to pacify Santana. Boston was trying to thwart NY and NY had difficulty placing a true value upon Santana. Although I love G. Steinbrenner and believe him to be one of the greatest owners in the history of professional sport--I am glad that Hank was in charge on this. With George NY would have Santana, but we would also be out Kennedy, Hughes and Cabrera.

I think that you will see a deal for Matsui by the Giants.
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Old 12-11-2007, 06:42 AM   #2460
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