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Old 03-08-2007, 12:03 AM   #91
dlearl476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Kool
That was no Aprilia, that was a Rotax engine. And even then the BMW used a different head than the Aprilia. Nowadays the G650 X is being built by Aprilia, but again with a Rotax engine.
What's yer point? AFAIK, until the 450/550 Aprilia hasn't built an engine in 20 or so years. Always the Rotax or Suzuki(?)

Here's some of my WAGs, to add to the rumor mill. That this thing bears even a slight cosmetic resemblance to anything BMW may choose to produce someday is a miracle. Same as the F650RR's built by Richard Schalber and raced in Dakar, same as the R900RRs raced a few years later. This is a prototype, and it has "Northern Italy" stamped all over it. Check out the frame. Check out ours (perhaps made in the same factory):




Although a different concept, the same fit, finish, and fasteners. Same as the engine on the 450, current with Aprilia concepts.

Definitely a prototype or test mule. They don't have to worry about how hard it is to change a sprocket. They have twenty mechanics that can probably do it in ten minutes, even if the entire engine has to come out of the frame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alfaris
BMW 450 Frame is absolutely different than Aprilia XRV´s combined deltabox-multitubular frame.
But take a look at the RACING Super-Motards. Much less Delta, much more thin-wall cro-moly tubing.
Quote:
Also i´ve been comparing both engines an there are many differences.
Like one cylinder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alfaris
Last news in spanish magazine Motociclismo, says that BMW has bought Husqvarna´s modern factory at Cassainete, Italy. BMW buy the factory production line, not the brand.

Looks like BMW will use its own technology and quality control but through former Husqvarna factory.

Husqvarna own production lines will remain at Varesse.

BMW aims directly to KTM.......
I'm with you. I think this will be the first product made in that factory, and the G-line assembly will move there as well.

Who'll buy a $7K BMW dirt bike? Ask an HP-2 owner. They could buy two and have change. I would as well.

In related news, I got to sit on an F800S today and pour over a XChallenge. I must admit, in person the fit and finish of the X is much better than the KLR quality apparent in the pics. Looks rather well put together.
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Old 03-08-2007, 07:11 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hair
And now BMW first real dirt bike and they go right for the 450cc market. They will get their butts kicked.
Sure thing.. just like they got their butts kicked on their F650 bikes... they are one of the most expensive 650's, if not the most expensive, and they don't seem to have a shortage of buyers.
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Old 03-08-2007, 07:40 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlearl476
What's yer point?
I was referring to the phrase "rebadged Aprilia" where we all know that in the early 90's Aprilia was desperate to have a volume selling model. Imagine their faces when BMW suggested to develop a single cylinder together and produce them in Aprilia's plant (because BMW's Berlin plant was fully booked making oilheads of course). BMW knew exactly what they wanted and were in charge, they weren't simply buying Aprilias, made small modifications and then sold them under the BMW flag.

I believe without BMW and Rotax, the Aprilia's 650cc thumpers would never have existed. Or even Aprilia at all (for I believe the Pegaso produced the money for Aprilia to pay Rotax to develop the 1000cc V-twin for them).
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Old 03-08-2007, 07:43 AM   #94
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Torque versus Flywheel coming to a theater near you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dorkpunch
i dont know, i may be wrong in my thinking here, but i think that setup would have LESS flywheel efect than a standard set up. the clutch in a normal bike is efectively a flywheel. its not bolted directly on the crank, but it has momentum that will try and keep the crank turning just like a flywheel. big clutch= more flywheel=more torquey feel, little clutch, no flywheel, = snappy mx feel. anyone else, thoughts?
Not arguing with anyone, just want to clarify what I think you all are trying to say:

The fact that a flywheel has mass isn't what gives it torque. Torque is derived from the ability to rotate an object; so the further you move the applied force from its pivot point, the more energy (HP) is converted to torque.

Put another way, torque is the resulting rotational force when energy is applied at a distance from an objects rotational point. The further you move away from the rotational center, the more torque you create.

The flywheel effect is stored energy. What it delivers for torque is still dependent on where it is applying its force relative to its rotational point.

Essentially the simple answer is the bigger the crank diameter (where it engages the clutch), the greater the amount of energy (HP) is converted to torque.

The "Flywheel" effect is just mass in motion or stored energy. When a large mass is "connected" to the drive system, it takes torque to turn it and get it spinning, and once spinning, it wants to stay in motion until acted upon. So the flywheel effect is really storing whatever torque is delivered to it, and "smoothing" out the delivery of the torque.

Engines with lots of torque typically have big crank diameters (longer stroke). Engines with big flywheels, are smoother. Not all engines have both. Both of these characteristics add weight and cost more.

Heres an example taken from a university website:

"Imagine pushing a door to open it. The force of your push (F) causes the door to rotate about its hinges (the pivot point, O). How hard you need to push depends on the distance you are from the hinges (r) (and several other things, but let's ignore them now). The closer you are to the hinges (i.e. the smaller r is), the harder it is to push. This is what happens when you try to push open a door on the wrong side. The torque you created on the door is smaller than it would have been had you pushed the correct side (away from its hinges)."

Hope this helps......
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Old 03-08-2007, 11:06 AM   #95
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What are you smokin'?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW Atlanta
I am willing to bet that changing out the counter sprocket will be quite easy as most of my bikes I have to take the rear wheel loose anyway to get enough slack off the chain to remove the CS. So if you remove the rear wheel and then remove the swingarm pivot shaft, the swing arm will drop down and then there will be enough clearance to slip the CS off, install the new one and re-install swingarm and wheel and off you go. ...
I can change the CS on my bike in approx 10 minutes. I'd like to see you remove the rear wheel, swing arm pivot shaft, drop the swing arm, change the CS and re-install everyrhing in under an hour! Not familiar with the rear suspension of this bike but removal of a swing arm usually entails removing the rear shock too! Good luck!
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Old 03-08-2007, 03:23 PM   #96
dlearl476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Kool
I was referring to the phrase "rebadged Aprilia" where we all know that in the early 90's Aprilia was desperate to have a volume selling model. Imagine their faces when BMW suggested to develop a single cylinder together and produce them in Aprilia's plant (because BMW's Berlin plant was fully booked making oilheads of course). BMW knew exactly what they wanted and were in charge, they weren't simply buying Aprilias, made small modifications and then sold them under the BMW flag.

I believe without BMW and Rotax, the Aprilia's 650cc thumpers would never have existed. Or even Aprilia at all (for I believe the Pegaso produced the money for Aprilia to pay Rotax to develop the 1000cc V-twin for them).
Well, since neither you or I were involved in the negotiations, we can't say for certain, but IMHO the fact that Aprilia was putting Rotax engines in Dual-Sport motocycles from 1986 (ETX600 & Tuareg) I believe BMW was much more of a "customer" than a "developer." Of course Aprilia jumped at the chance. It's a well known fact that quality motorcycle production is well below capacity in Northern Italy. The brains and the braun are there so it made perfect sense for BMW to hook up with Aprilia. I believe it was more of a parallel development that a re-badging, but Aprilia was already in planning stages of the replacement for the Tuareg.

And they've done it again.
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Old 03-08-2007, 03:30 PM   #97
dlearl476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrcrussell
I can change the CS on my bike in approx 10 minutes. I'd like to see you remove the rear wheel, swing arm pivot shaft, drop the swing arm, change the CS and re-install everyrhing in under an hour! Not familiar with the rear suspension of this bike but removal of a swing arm usually entails removing the rear shock too! Good luck!
Kind of a moot point. This is a factory race bike. No one outside the team is ever going to need to work on it, and I can assure you they can change the CS sprocket in 10 minutes, if they have to disassemble the whole bike to do it.
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Old 03-16-2007, 01:02 AM   #98
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read in one of the cycle mags about the rumor of bmw looking to buy husqvarna??? to be able to compete with ktm.
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Old 03-16-2007, 06:59 AM   #99
doyle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eakins
read in one of the cycle mags about the rumor of bmw looking to buy husqvarna??? to be able to compete with ktm.
I think that rumor has morphed into BMW buying one of Husqvarna's production lines not the make itself.
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Old 03-16-2007, 07:36 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Kool
That was no Aprilia, that was a Rotax engine. And even then the BMW used a different head than the Aprilia. Nowadays the G650 X is being built by Aprilia, but again with a Rotax engine.

Anyway, more pics Mr Sulu:




Rotax builds engines for Aprilia too.
From what I understand Aprilia only design and assembles bikes. All the manufacturing is outsourced.
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Old 03-16-2007, 11:30 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hair
Rotax builds engines for Aprilia too.
From what I understand Aprilia only design and assembles bikes. All the manufacturing is outsourced.
Not exactly that way anymore with the introduction of the RXV and SXV which they soley engineered, designed and manufactured all on their own from the power plant to the frame and such.
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Old 03-16-2007, 04:26 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Kool
Hmm I dont know man. There's also a swingarm in between there. Maybe it's just a matter of removing the swingarm.
Well with modern casting methods, the swingarm itself kan become the enclosure, so wait and see :-)
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Old 03-16-2007, 04:46 PM   #103
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Heey Ernst!

Good to see you. How's life man, is the Mulhacen already in the house?

(say hi to Syl)
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Old 03-16-2007, 05:57 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Kool
I believe without BMW and Rotax, the Aprilia's 650cc thumpers would never have existed. Or even Aprilia at all (for I believe the Pegaso produced the money for Aprilia to pay Rotax to develop the 1000cc V-twin for them).
Historically nonsense, the aprilia was already two years in production before BMW bought themselve a learnerbike for the missus...
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Old 03-16-2007, 06:10 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Kool
Heey Ernst!

Good to see you. How's life man, is the Mulhacen already in the house?

(say hi to Syl)
Life is as aver slightly bumpy but fantastic, the Mulhacen is in da House, and boy what a joy.

(hmmm if i place a picture here will te mod's relocate it? :-)

Relocate it myself

New Thread devoted to the Mulhacen
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