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Old 12-03-2013, 07:27 AM   #1
flemsmith OP
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Glyptal

78 MG T3...finishing up 2-3 year rebuild (who's counting?).
After a ride over 10 miles or so, I have a small leak from the oil pan fins. (I have one of those external oil filter spacers between the pan and the block.) Dusted the sides all around with flour as I was trying to isolate the source, and although I'm not positive I could tell that way, I think it's coming from the gasket surface between the oil pan and the spacer (rear), not the engine block and the spacer. Ordered two of those silicone gaskets from realgaskets.com. Getting close to the first 100 miles engine break-in point, so I'll be changing the oil, retorquing the heads, adjusting the valves, and dropping the oil pan to put the new gaskets in. I notice the spacer looks quite porous, and although I'm not totally sure it's leaking there, is there a downside to cleaning the inside surface and painting it with Glyptal? Never used it before, so I thought I'd ask if I need to worry about it coming off, best prep method (I'd normally just clean the surface and use alcohol as the prep). By the way, I've not usually used loctite on stainless screws in aluminum, but I'm thinking I may on the oil pan. As long as it doesn't leak again, I shouldn't need to take it off, and with only 8 ft-lbs of torque, I want to make sure heating cycles don't loosen the screws. Advice? Thanks, roy
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Old 12-03-2013, 06:42 PM   #2
CoyoteCowboy
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I don't really know anything about Glyptal, but Loctite... on stainless....in ALUMINUM?! Damn, you've got bigger balls than I do! That just gives me visions of pulled threads and lots of Heli-coils if you ever DO have to pull it apart. There's gotta be some other way of securing them...like wiring all of them. Foolproof, removable and it looks racey too!

As usual, someone correct me if I'm wrong...but that gives me the heebeedee jeebeedees just thinkin about it!
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Old 12-03-2013, 06:52 PM   #3
bmwrench
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I wouldn't use the silicone gaskets, but stainless bolts are fine in this application. Put a little anti-seize on them. 8 lbs/ft is excessive. 6lbs/ft is plenty.
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Old 12-03-2013, 10:01 PM   #4
flemsmith OP
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Got the silicone gaskets today...

They are really thick! I should measure them, but I'll bet they're almost 2 mm in thickness. And the flyer they sent said to use 20 inch-lbs torque. That's less than 2 ft-lbs!....if I use these gaskets, I'll probably use lockwashers and anti-seize instead of blue loctite..and worry like hell that the bolts might come loose.....Before I decide to use them, I think I'll order some regular gaskets, take things apart and see if I can tell why it was leaking and take another stab at fixing it with regular gaskets and a light smear of blk RTV on one side of the gaskets (the side I suspect was causing the problem). And I'm gonna forget about the Glyptal; I doubt it's leaking thru the casting. Open to other suggestions, and thanks for the feedback so far. roy
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Old 12-04-2013, 05:27 AM   #5
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I would....make SURE all surfaces are flat....use regular gaskets with very light grease coating.....torque to specs....
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Old 12-04-2013, 09:00 AM   #6
flemsmith OP
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That's exactly the way it was done....

...when the engine was reassembled. Of course, there's always the rest of the story. It seems the previous owner at some point had pried the oil pan off with a screwdriver, gouging both surfaces in quite a few places. Greg, who rebuilt the engine, resurfaced them on a granite block with sandpaper. Took him quite a while. I'll see whether I can tell anything about the leak origin when I take it apart...I'm thinking I may need thicker gaskets in case everything is not totally parallel, which I don't really know how to measure.
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Old 12-04-2013, 09:44 AM   #7
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I wouldn't bother with Glyptal either. Wrong application. Back in the day Glyptal was only used on the rough porous surfaces of a casting not on the machined surfaces. Make sure everything is "absolutely" flat and clean. If it's not...make it so or have a machine shop do it. Don't bother messing with various gasket tricks to compensate for bad parts. Fix the parts.
Use the stock cork gaskets and do not use any goop on them. The purpose of cork is to absorb oil and swell the cork to provide the final seal. Torque only to factory spec. Cork works excellent if installed correctly. Only advantage of silicone gaskets is that they're reusable. They won't compensate for bad parts/improper install any better than cork. I also wouldn't use loctite either. If you feel the need, use blue NOT red, preferably neither. Make sure the bolt holes are clean and not previously damaged. With SS bolts going into alum use a thin dab of anti-seize on the threads to prevent galling.
Odds are your issues are from previous ham fisted mechanics. Don't overthink/re-engineer this. Flat clean mating surfaces and proper install and not over torquing are the keys, not some magic goop or exotic gaskets.
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Old 12-06-2013, 03:13 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eldomike View Post
I would....make SURE all surfaces are flat....use regular gaskets with very light grease coating.....torque to specs....
Make sure mating surfaces are oil free. Use only dry gaskets. Do not grease the gaskets under any circumstances.
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Old 12-06-2013, 10:49 AM   #9
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Greg Bender?
If Greg did the work you can rest assured that even though it might no longer be in the realm of perfection, it certainly was perfectly functional.
The original gasket should do the job. I'd be hesitant to trust some stickum to replace a seal...
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Old 12-06-2013, 02:57 PM   #10
MZRider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manxkipper View Post
Make sure mating surfaces are oil free. Use only dry gaskets. Do not grease the gaskets under any circumstances.
Huh?

Installing the gasket dry is great if the pan never has to come off again, but since the oil filter is inside the pan on an 850-T3, it does. Dry they will stick and you end up doing lots of extra work to remove them.

My advice for Flemsmith: use the thick green gaskets than MG Cycle sells, lightly grease both sides. Use anti-seize on the screws, definitely do not use Loctite. Torque to 84 in./lbs. Retorque after several heat/cool cycles - the gaskets will compress. This is what I do on all Guzzis (customer and my own) and have never had a leak as a result.
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Old 12-06-2013, 04:20 PM   #11
eldomike
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Well said....

Quote:
Originally Posted by MZRider View Post
Huh?

Installing the gasket dry is great if the pan never has to come off again, but since the oil filter is inside the pan on an 850-T3, it does. Dry they will stick and you end up doing lots of extra work to remove them.

My advice for Flemsmith: use the thick green gaskets than MG Cycle sells, lightly grease both sides. Use anti-seize on the screws, definitely do not use Loctite. Torque to 84 in./lbs. Retorque after several heat/cool cycles - the gaskets will compress. This is what I do on all Guzzis (customer and my own) and have never had a leak as a result.
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Old 12-06-2013, 06:51 PM   #12
flemsmith OP
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Thanks for inputs....

I have those green gaskets on order; pretty sure it has thinner brown colored ones on it now. That'll be my next try. Plus, as stated earlier, I have a sump spacer and the external oil filter on it, so I won't be taking it off and back on once this little leak is fixed.

roy
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Old 12-07-2013, 06:59 AM   #13
MZRider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flemsmith View Post
I have those green gaskets on order; pretty sure it has thinner brown colored ones on it now. That'll be my next try. Plus, as stated earlier, I have a sump spacer and the external oil filter on it, so I won't be taking it off and back on once this little leak is fixed.

roy
It's still not a bad idea to occasionally (once a year?) drop the sump and clean out the sludge that will collect. That's why Guzzi put the filter inside the sump - to encourage owners to clean out the sump.

What "outsider" do you have - Harper's or other? I have heard of both leaking. Sometimes it's best just to leave things stock...
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Old 12-07-2013, 07:18 AM   #14
flemsmith OP
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I have the filter spacer from MG cycle

And, yes, Greg Bender did the work for me; it was a kick to watch him take it apart with all the right tools and fixtures and knowledge; wish I had takend pix of that. Engine sounds and runs great! It had iron liners that were in very good condition and was already bored out to 944 (forget the exact number). It's got some great torque. He documented the reassembly on his website as Roy's T3 engine rebuild.

roy
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Old 12-07-2013, 11:52 AM   #15
MZRider
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Originally Posted by flemsmith View Post
And, yes, Greg Bender did the work for me; it was a kick to watch him take it apart with all the right tools and fixtures and knowledge; wish I had takend pix of that. Engine sounds and runs great! It had iron liners that were in very good condition and was already bored out to 944 (forget the exact number). It's got some great torque. He documented the reassembly on his website as Roy's T3 engine rebuild.

roy
http://thisoldtractor.com/gtbender/p..._roy_smith.htm
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