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Old 03-18-2013, 10:19 PM   #6511
Sateev
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradluke0 View Post
Hi all! The dealer looked in the service manual and Suzuki says to replace the cylinder if it is scratched or otherwise damaged , so that tells me it is a plated cylinder . So , do I reuse the rings or install new rings and hope they seat? The used rings have almost no wear and are at the "tight" spot of the specs . My intuition tells me just to put it back the way it was , not sure the new rings will seat against an un-honed cylinder wall. Goon310......I would not use 20-50 in this motor unless I was in Death Valley . 10-40 gives better flow through the engine , especially the bearings .
There is a Suzuki OEM part number (12140-19B10-050) for a 0.5mm oversize piston/ring set, which leads me to believe that the cylinder is machinable, and the dealer is full of the well-known article. Probably has a cylinder on the shelf he wants to get rid of...
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Old 03-19-2013, 11:07 AM   #6512
bradluke0
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Hi all ! Talked to Suzuki USA and they don't know if the cylinder is serviceable or not . Called a different local dealer and they don't know either . Hard to believe I'm the first person to ever put a set of rings in a DR200 . If it is iron I would hone and use new rings , if not I will just put it back together . Being they make a .5 mm larger piston makes me believe it's iron , looking at it I see no sleeve and it looks all aluminum . My gaskets won't be here until tomorrow so if I can't find out for sure I will just reassemble it .
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Old 03-19-2013, 01:45 PM   #6513
Andyinhilo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradluke0 View Post
Hi all ! Talked to Suzuki USA and they don't know if the cylinder is serviceable or not . Called a different local dealer and they don't know either . Hard to believe I'm the first person to ever put a set of rings in a DR200 . If it is iron I would hone and use new rings , if not I will just put it back together . Being they make a .5 mm larger piston makes me believe it's iron , looking at it I see no sleeve and it looks all aluminum . My gaskets won't be here until tomorrow so if I can't find out for sure I will just reassemble it .
They do know, but did not realize it...

Just check here: http://www.suzukicycles.com/Product%....aspx#Features

For this statement:

Suzuki Composite Electrochemical Material (SCEM)-plated cylinder for durability, lightweight and superior heat transfer
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Old 03-19-2013, 02:37 PM   #6514
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Was trying to learn something here myself and came across this...


All of the Japanese motorcycle manufacturers caution against using any type of hone in a plated cylinder. Its not that its an impossible task, its just because it’s a difficult thing to do correctly. Here are some basic rules for honing light scratches, burnt oil, and minor aluminum scuffs on nickel-plated cylinders. 1) Use a ball-hone with a diameter that is 10% smaller than the cylinder bore size, 240-360 grit, and made of aluminum-oxide material. 2) Never ever use a three-shoe stone hone because they will chip the port edges. 3) Coat the cylinder and ball-hone in oil before honing the cylinder. 4) Chuck the ball-hone in a drill and put the hone in the cylinder completely before turning. 5) Run the drill at a slow speed and stroke the hone back and forth in the bore for about ten strokes. Cylinders that are nickel-plated are very hard (83 Rockwell C Scale) so you can’t remove any metal with a ball-hone. I usually hone a cylinder every time I change the piston assembly. Ball-honing polishes down high spots and sharp port edges without damaging the plating. Ball-honing will insure that the piston and rings have a smooth cross-hatched surface to mate with. Kawasaki cylinders use a different bore material and plating method. The tungsten material is very thin and vulnerable. For those cylinders I suggest using a piece of Scotch-Brite to hand strip the cylinder bore of burnt oil. Whenever you hone a cylinder you should clean the cylinder in mineral spirits solvent and then hot soapy water. Spray the cylinder with penetrating oil to displace the water left over from cleaning.


Post #8 of this thread on Dirtriders "Suzuki cylinders...to hone or not to hone"

http://www.dirtrider.net/forums3/showthread.php?t=63608
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Old 03-19-2013, 11:47 PM   #6515
Sateev
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honing/re-coating Nikasil®/SCEM cylinders

Quote:
Originally Posted by bross View Post
Was trying to learn something here myself and came across this...


All of the Japanese motorcycle manufacturers caution against using any type of hone in a plated cylinder. Its not that its an impossible task, its just because it’s a difficult thing to do correctly. Here are some basic rules for honing light scratches, burnt oil, and minor aluminum scuffs on nickel-plated cylinders. 1) Use a ball-hone with a diameter that is 10% smaller than the cylinder bore size, 240-360 grit, and made of aluminum-oxide material. 2) Never ever use a three-shoe stone hone because they will chip the port edges. 3) Coat the cylinder and ball-hone in oil before honing the cylinder. 4) Chuck the ball-hone in a drill and put the hone in the cylinder completely before turning. 5) Run the drill at a slow speed and stroke the hone back and forth in the bore for about ten strokes. Cylinders that are nickel-plated are very hard (83 Rockwell C Scale) so you can’t remove any metal with a ball-hone. I usually hone a cylinder every time I change the piston assembly. Ball-honing polishes down high spots and sharp port edges without damaging the plating. Ball-honing will insure that the piston and rings have a smooth cross-hatched surface to mate with. Kawasaki cylinders use a different bore material and plating method. The tungsten material is very thin and vulnerable. For those cylinders I suggest using a piece of Scotch-Brite to hand strip the cylinder bore of burnt oil. Whenever you hone a cylinder you should clean the cylinder in mineral spirits solvent and then hot soapy water. Spray the cylinder with penetrating oil to displace the water left over from cleaning.


Post #8 of this thread on Dirtriders "Suzuki cylinders...to hone or not to hone"

http://www.dirtrider.net/forums3/showthread.php?t=63608
Don't think 10% UNDERSIZE is viable; don't know who Eric (on Dirtrider) is, and don't accept his authority on this subject, although the sheep over there seem to quote him like a God.

OK, here's the deal, from http://www.aera.org/engine-professio...AE-and-alusil/:

Quote:
Nikasil®: As has been mentioned, many variations of Nikasil® like Elnisil®, Kanisil®, Electrosil® and SCEM or Suzuki Composite Electro-chemical Material are available from a variety of manufacturers but generally, these nickel silicon carbide composites use about 14% silicon carbide with the rest in nickel and other additives as binders. This would be similar to conventional vitrified abrasive material where ceramic binders are used to hold abrasive crystals in place. Figures 1 and 2 are representations of one type of nickel silicon carbide composite provided by Electrosil Performance Cylinder Technology in Melbourne, Australia.

By drawing a comparison to vitrified abrasives, one might conclude that Nikasil® is an abrasive and by some definitions, it could be. The reason it is not stems largely from low crystal density and the nickel binder covering all but the microscopic peaks of those crystals. These silicon carbide micro peaks are often smaller than oil molecules which reside between crystals and allow pistons and rings to slide easily along the cylinder surface. I suspect this is one of the reasons Nikasil® exhibits greatly reduced friction for sliding seal components such as pistons and rings.

...

Most of the confusion surrounding Nikasil® and Alusil exists because they are both used as cylinder ID surfaces for exactly the same application. Even their name suggests they are the same so it is easy to mix them up and treat them identically when machining. So how do we machinists and assemblers treat these two distinctly different processes?

Let’s start with Nikasil®. Nickel silicon carbide composites are applied as a thin coating of about .002”-.006” thick. We are told that anything thicker than .006” and the coating may lose some of its elasticity and become brittle. So, depending on how much thickness you have to work with, careful honing is a viable process to restore a factory surface finish. If you cannot determine coating thickness, assume it is thin and treat it as thought it were no more than .002” thick. Due to the thin nature of this coating, boring the cylinder to the next oversize will remove the coating entirely. Under these circumstances, the block or cylinders should be sent to a facility that specializes in re-coating with nickel silicon carbide.

Mahle recommends honing no more than .001” from Nikasil® coated bores and only to restore cylindricity to any wear areas. If wear is greater than .001”, it is advisable to have the coating stripped (in many cases this is a simple electro chemical process and does not require boring) and fresh nickel silicon carbide applied. Check with the supplier of coating material for correct honing stones for this process. Please note that piston to wall clearance for Nikasil® coated liners and hypereutectic pistons can be as close as .0008” so careful attention to detail is advised.
Don't understand why Suzuki offers a 0.5mm (.020") oversize, unless they think a re-coating of the cylinder wall is viable (and a vendor accessible). Sounds like big bucks to me, likely a lot more than a new cylinder, so draw your own conclusion.

My DR is for sale, BTW, if anyone in Thailand has a hankering.

Edit: this: http://kustom-kraft.com/NEWNIKASIL.html is a link to a complete re-bore/re-coat/new piston service for small motors (like ours). Go figure...

Sateev screwed with this post 03-20-2013 at 01:46 AM Reason: found re-coating service
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:34 AM   #6516
bradluke0
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Hi all ! US Suzuki called me back this morning and said the cylinder is not serviceable . So, would you guys put new rings in and hope they seat or just use the old ones? The old ones are at .006" for the top ring and .007" for the second one . Still don't have my service book so don't really know if they are in spec . Thx again you guys for all the great info.......brad
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Old 03-20-2013, 11:39 AM   #6517
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My instinct would be just to throw it all back together and not worry about it.
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:41 PM   #6518
acif
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i´m back

about the cylinder:

suzuki makes 2 types of cylinders for the dr200.
1. aluminium cylinder with ferreous sleeve.
2. all aluminium cylinder with SCEM coating applied directly to the cylinder (no sleeve).

the first type is the older type and can be rebored (this is why there are oversize pistons and rings).
the newer type (SCEM) can't be rebored (no oversize pistons, only standard bore).

the older type doesent has any special marks and the sleeve is clearly visible.
the newer type has a clearly stamped SCEM above the 199cc mark.

older vrs newer:







acif screwed with this post 03-20-2013 at 06:29 PM Reason: pictures
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Old 03-20-2013, 05:13 PM   #6519
Andyinhilo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradluke0 View Post
Hi all ! US Suzuki called me back this morning and said the cylinder is not serviceable . So, would you guys put new rings in and hope they seat or just use the old ones? The old ones are at .006" for the top ring and .007" for the second one . Still don't have my service book so don't really know if they are in spec . Thx again you guys for all the great info.......brad
I would do as Klay said, just put it back together with new gaskets. The rings will be fine.
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Old 03-20-2013, 07:02 PM   #6520
Sateev
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Thanks ACIF!

Thank you for that info, ACIF. It really takes the mystery out of it.

So, unless it's marked SCEM, I would hone it, replace the rings, and put it back together...

I think I have mine sold, but I'm headed back to the US, so maybe I'll pick up another one. I'll be watching for that 'SCEM' marking on the cylinder - and avoid it.

Thanks again.
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Old 03-20-2013, 07:07 PM   #6521
Klay
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Ours are apparently the non-plated version...2001 model DR200s.
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Old 03-20-2013, 07:16 PM   #6522
Sateev
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Ours are apparently the non-plated version...2001 model DR200s.
Yeah, I wondered about the model year - Andy's brochure post was from I believe, a 2004.

Mine is a 2002, and definitely not plated.

(Bummer: another Craigslist dipwad just cancelled, so the bike is still for sale.)
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Old 03-20-2013, 07:41 PM   #6523
Sateev
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DR200 cylinder on eBay (1999)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/99-DR200-DR-...a9f169&vxp=mtr

For $75, you can have a re-borable cylinder, plus it appears to be in good shape, with honing hash marks visible. Just a thought.
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:11 AM   #6524
bradluke0
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Hi all ! Wow , thanks for putting this mystery to bed . Mine is a 2005 with the SCEM on the side so it is the aluminum / plated cylinder . The wear limit on the rings is .02" and mine are .006" and .007" . Luckily my service CD came in yesterday so now I have some actual instructions. Tonight I will put it back together . Thanks again you guys , you're awesome ! brad
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:57 PM   #6525
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Hi all ! ok , I have hit just one snag that the manual does not address . The cam chain tensioner.....it can go in both ways and the piston part with the ratchet is offset . Does the piston part go top left or right bottom . Can someone post a picture of one that has never been removed? Thx again guys.......brad
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