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Old 09-03-2009, 04:20 AM   #871
crag antler
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Location: Florida Cracker in Southern Maine
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Well she finally kicked me back

I have been converting my failed igniton switch over to 2 separate switches.
Well yesterday evening, I got it all buttoned up and went to test them.
Kick and kick and she wouldn't start
Realized I didn't have my new switch turned on. Stupid me, turned it on and tried to kick again.
Well she kicked right back. Almost sent me over the seat.
Even with work boots on, I ended up with a sprained ankle.
Damn it and my motocross boots were within sight.
So here I sit with my foot elevated and an aircast on. Crutches for the next few days. Good news I am on vacation starting tomorrow night, or maybe even today. I will have to see how work goes. Can't really do too much as a facility engineer on crutches.
So if you don't know, please wear something with a steel shank.
I'm just glad nothing is broken.
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Old 09-03-2009, 11:50 AM   #872
Zombie_Stomp
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I remember when I first got the bike there was a party across the street and everybody was going up on the roof by climbing using a board. Time to come down, there was no board. I jumped in my thin dress shoes and sprained my ankles... both of them. So when I was first trying to get the bike running, I had to stop because my ankle hurt fro still being sprained.

Knowing what top dead center feels like, knowing never to pull the throttle while kicking, and the decompressor lever will save you from injury, my friend.
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Old 09-03-2009, 12:25 PM   #873
mcma111
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Pain

Pain



It's a wonderful teacher...
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Old 09-03-2009, 12:28 PM   #874
crag antler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie_Stomp
I remember when I first got the bike there was a party across the street and everybody was going up on the roof by climbing using a board. Time to come down, there was no board. I jumped in my thin dress shoes and sprained my ankles... both of them. So when I was first trying to get the bike running, I had to stop because my ankle hurt fro still being sprained.

Knowing what :
1. top dead center feels like, I got that down pretty well
2. knowing never to pull the throttle while kicking, biggest problem when kicking sometimes is, that my right hand will turn while kicking.just haven't gotten hand placement down yet.
and
3. the decompressor lever will save you from
injury, my friend.That and wearing the proper footwear. Another problem is not even thinking about it...
.................
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Old 09-03-2009, 12:30 PM   #875
crag antler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcma111
Pain



It's a wonderful teacher...
Yeah but you know, I just started a 2 weeks vacation 2 days early. Don't go back to work until the 17th and I don't go on my camping trip until the 10th.Should be healed by then and if not I was taking the car anyhow.
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Old 09-08-2009, 07:13 PM   #876
uniter
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Hey guys, I'm at my wits end with this machine I just bought. Got it at the beginning of the summer and still haven't ridden it.

Fresh top end, including valves&springs, good compression. Ricky stator, all resistances check out, new plug cap, new resistor-less plug (D8EA), good spark. Cleaned carbs, 135&132 mains, 65 pilot, needle in 5th (richest) groove (where it was when I got it).

When I finished the rebuild I set the needle to the 4th groove, it started and idled for a bit but when I went to open the throttle it would pop and then die; I figured it was lean so moved the clip back down. I also put it a 65 pilot due to the lean condition; it ran hot and the plug was white.

When I last had it running (after hours of kicking and playing with it) it sounded good when I was on the throttle, no lean pops, but when I eased up off the throttle it stalled and no amount of kicks would bring it back to life (I know the proper procedure). Gas comes out of the float bowl drain when I turn out the screw on the bottom of the carb so I know they're getting gas. When I kick it a lot with the choke on and pull the plug I notice there isn't really any fuel on the plug but I do smell gas.

I really don't understand why it won't run, I'll kick and kick with the choke off and it wont start, I'll kick with it on and it won't start. Halfway, it won't start. Pilot screw at 2 turns out. I don't know where I should set the idle screw, whether it is open enough or not enough. Sometimes I'll kick with the throttle open a hair but it still does nothing.

It's a pain because it has been running, just not for very long, and it has everything it needs.

I'm going to turn the idle up tomorrow and squirt quick start in the hard-to-reach spark plug hole with a hose and give it some kicks with the choke off. I'm also thinking of pulling the carbs off again and making sure it's all blown out, especially the choke channel, I feel I may have forgotten it. I feel like I should be able to see fuel on the plug after lots of choke kicks.

The one ignition component I haven't tested (because I haven't bought a new one) is the CDI unit. It has good spark, but if it's firing at the wrong time it's going to be a crapshoot, does that kind of thing ever happen?

If anyone has any insights or ideas of things to look at it'd really be appreciated right about now.
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Old 09-08-2009, 07:22 PM   #877
mrfixit54016
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I will guess that it is either a dirty pilot jet, or a bad stator. If your not getting gas into the cylinder, then your carb on the left side of the bike (this is your primary carb and the only one working during start-up) has a clogged jet.

Stators are VERY common problems with these bikes. $130 for a Ricky Stator is money well spent and will probably get you by for another 25 years.

CDI units usually either work or they don't. If your timing is off, it is because the cam chain is not set-up with the cam properly. Not because of the CDI.

One more thing to check is your valve adjustment. It only takes about half an hour to do it.

Good Luck.
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Old 09-08-2009, 07:31 PM   #878
uniter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uniter
Ricky stator, all resistances check out, new plug cap, new resistor-less plug (D8EA), good spark. Cleaned carbs, 135&132 mains, 65 pilot, needle in 5th (richest) groove (where it was when I got it).


I meant the ignition timing being off, the valve timing is set perfectly, I made sure of it when I was rebuilding it.

I just cleaned the carbs and blew everything out, I guess I'll do it again though, making especially sure the choke channel is clean.

Valves are perfect.
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Old 09-08-2009, 07:43 PM   #879
mcma111
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Timing

Quote:
Originally Posted by uniter


I meant the ignition timing being off,
Timing on the motor CAN NOT be off. The PULSE ROTOR that goes on the crank to trip the PULSE GENERATOR only fit's on the shaft ONE and only ONE WAY.

Your trouble is in the carburator.
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87 Harley FXRS-SP ~ 06 KTM 625 SMC ~ 72 Honda CB750/915cc ~ 92 XR600/654cc ~ 95 XR650l/675cc ~ 03 CRF450r ~ 05 CRF450x ~ 02 XR650l/675cc ~ 86 YZ490 ~ 93 YZ80 ~ 93 XR650l Project
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Old 09-08-2009, 08:21 PM   #880
Gregster OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcma111
Timing on the motor CAN NOT be off. The PULSE ROTOR that goes on the crank to trip the PULSE GENERATOR only fit's on the shaft ONE and only ONE WAY...
Well according to the Honda Service Manual, that's what they say, but the reality is that yes, it can go on wrong on some bikes, and mine is one of those that just have a small mark in one of the regular looking splines to indicate where to position the pulse generator rotor tab. Not all XL600R engines have the wide spline on the crank. See below:

This is where the wide spline is supposed to go.


But this is what I get instead of a wide spline - a small indentation near the end of one spline.


The correct orientation for this setup is with the wide spline space on the pulse generator rotor positioned centered over the small indentation like this. With the pulse generator rotor tab positioned at 3:00, the crank is a few degrees before TDC, which is what you want.


This is where you want the tab to be at the instant the crank passes TDC, meaning that the spark has already fired and the fuel/air mix is still lighting up (flame front propegating across the combustion chamber so that the full force of the explosion happens when the piston is just starting it's downward stroke, not after it is already on the way down which would be the case if the tab passed in front of the pulse generator and ignited the air/fuel mix at TDC). How's that for a run oun scentence? I'm guessing that they have 12 degrees of spark advance.


If this stuff isn't positioned right, your motor just won't run at all. If you got it to idle, even if only briefly, then this stuff must be set up right, and your problem is with the fuel/air delivery. Try taking your carbs apart and cleaning them real good with carb cleaner, paying special close attention to the jets. And make sure everything gets reassembled right.

Good luck.
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Old 09-08-2009, 08:37 PM   #881
uniter
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Thanks man.

I should mention I didn't go into the bottom end so the pulse generator never got touched. It has run. Before I rebuilt it I got it going by push start and rode it around for an hour; it ran fine. I thought the ridiculously hard start was caused by low compression (after putting in the new stator) so I rebuilt it. Before the rebuild I got 60PSI cold, now I have 90PSI cold.

It has run since the rebuilt, but it certainly has not run long or started easily at all.

I'll pull the carbs for the 5th time. Earlier this week I put in the fresh 65 pilot, everything was clean and jets were clear. I couldn't see it being a clogged pilot but it's possible. It's also possible that the choke is plugged.

It's as if it's just not catching. When it does start, it fires right up and away it goes, but it just doesn't catch 98% of the time. I was thinking I wasn't kicking it fast enough and that I might be too small to start this machine but I think I'm kicking it pretty good. I get lots of sparks when I do the spark test. TDC, pull decompressor, hair past TDC, heavy, solid, swift follow through.

It's gotta be fuel related. I should be seeing a soaked plug with lots of choke kicks right?
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Old 09-09-2009, 02:26 AM   #882
God of Speed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crag antler
...biggest problem when kicking sometimes is, that my right hand will turn while kicking.just haven't gotten hand placement down yet.
and ..............
i used to do that but i find that if i grip the front brake lever and have my thumb under the throttle it holds it against the idle stop. then when she fires your hand is right there and ready to rev it a bit to warm up.

the brake also keeps the bike steady and it doesnt roll around whilst putting you back into it. im only 65kgs (140lbs), i should know.
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Old 09-09-2009, 09:45 AM   #883
BrandonR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfixit54016

CDI units usually either work or they don't. If your timing is off, it is because the cam chain is not set-up with the cam properly. Not because of the CDI.
The CDI decides when to fire the plug based on the pulse from the pulse generator, it can and does fail causing the spark to fire at the wrong time. I spent weeks messing with my carbs looking for problems when my bike was hard to start and had a loss of power and extra hot exhaust, it turned out to be a bad CDI. After replacing the CDI I got 1 kick starts and full power at top-end.

If the CDI is firing way too early or way too late you'll never get ignition, mine was slightly too late causing the mix to still be burning when the exhaust valves opened. You'd never have known the timing was off without a timing light or similar diagnostic tool, the spark was plenty strong, I had spark, fuel and air just not at the right time.
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Old 09-09-2009, 11:13 AM   #884
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I have different starting/running problem. My 1983 XL600 starts OK. If I set idle up so it does not stall when coming off choke, it then idles too high when it is real warm. Before it gets real warm, it will occasionally "cough" then stall. I sprayed carb cleaner up through the idle jet of left carb (from float area of carb) so I think it is clean. The "cap" on the air adjust screw came off so it is set about 2 1/2 turns out. I've adjusted it to maximize the rpm when engine is warm.

The resistance of the stator checks out to be about 340 ohms, just a little on the high side, and I can feel voltage going to the plug when I ground it and kick it over. Spark is not real bright though when I am just kicking it over.

What can I do to make it so idle does not keep getting higher and higher as engine warms up?

What makes it "Cough" and die?

When engine is hot, it has good response and power from idle through high speed.

Maybe I just need an extension on the idle adjustment screw so I can adjust it easily without getting off the bike and taking out a screw driver. Does anyone make such an extension?
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Old 09-09-2009, 11:38 AM   #885
uniter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandonR
The CDI decides when to fire the plug based on the pulse from the pulse generator, it can and does fail causing the spark to fire at the wrong time. I spent weeks messing with my carbs looking for problems when my bike was hard to start and had a loss of power and extra hot exhaust, it turned out to be a bad CDI. After replacing the CDI I got 1 kick starts and full power at top-end.

If the CDI is firing way too early or way too late you'll never get ignition, mine was slightly too late causing the mix to still be burning when the exhaust valves opened. You'd never have known the timing was off without a timing light or similar diagnostic tool, the spark was plenty strong, I had spark, fuel and air just not at the right time.
Interesting.

I'm going to pull the carbs tonight just to make sure but I don't think that's where it is; I've made sure they're clean and blown.

I do have spark, but like you it's just not "catching". It also runs hot when it does run. It will start if everything is PERFECT and the spark just happens to catch the charge. It might also explain why it doesn't idle well, as if the timing is late.

If it isn't carbs I'm going to have to place my bet on the CDI. The pulse generator has the right resistance and does produce a small voltage when I kick it. Secondary coil has the right resistance, and I put a ricky stator in it. Only thing left is the CDI.
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