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Old 08-30-2007, 06:26 PM   #31
dakarboy OP
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i am out of here. will see you tuesday.
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Old 08-30-2007, 08:51 PM   #32
DougRoost
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What a PITA. Makes any other bike look brilliant. I know what d/s bike I WON'T be buying.
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Old 08-31-2007, 09:02 AM   #33
dakarboy OP
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the service between a 640 adv and this bike are very close. the suspension fluid change is much easier on the dakar. the valves are harder to adjust, but done only every 12k versus 6k for the katoom. so it is really a wash. its just that i am breaking it down move for move, and since you have an obvious dislike for the bike, you see the negative. whatever, very few ktm riders are going to trade there 525 in on a dakar. that would mean you would actually have to ride the bike you bought instead of trailering it everywhere!
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Old 08-31-2007, 10:05 AM   #34
DougRoost
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Removing a pair of cams and going through the whole shim and bucket thing is a real hassle compared to the screw adjust ones like the LC4 uses. It's racier and I understand the trade-off to get high RPMs, but not worth it for this use IMO. I cannot believe how much you have to remove to get at the head. I know those Rotax engines are really smooth and the fuel tank below the seat means it carries it's weight low so guess that's the trade-off.

I rode my friend's F650GS and was impressed by how smooth it was and easy to ride. But it's definitely more of a streetbike than I'm looking for....seems a 640e is what I need to add to my 300 2-stroke. Incidentally, I've been driving BMW cars for a very long time and do all my own work on them. Fortunately, they're much more straightforward than this.
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Old 08-31-2007, 11:11 AM   #35
Colorado Uli
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Man, and I was actually considering doing this job on my '02 Dakar over the weekend. Now, I'm not so sure about it. Yeah, I do all my own light maintenance and have even put in an Ohlins shock without much difficulty, but this looks like a good way to screw up the engine even worse then it was if you're not an experienced mechanic with a full set of tools.

How much is the BMW shop gonna charge me for the shim change (assuming they need changing)?
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Old 08-31-2007, 12:58 PM   #36
dakarboy OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado Uli
Man, and I was actually considering doing this job on my '02 Dakar over the weekend. Now, I'm not so sure about it. Yeah, I do all my own light maintenance and have even put in an Ohlins shock without much difficulty, but this looks like a good way to screw up the engine even worse then it was if you're not an experienced mechanic with a full set of tools.

How much is the BMW shop gonna charge me for the shim change (assuming they need changing)?
there should be one flat charge just to check them, if they need adjusting then the labor and parts will go up accordingly. the shims cost about 35 from max. sometimes there is an shim exchange. if there is not, get your old ones back. keep em honest!

listening to all the responses to this is making me realize i do not charge enough.
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Old 08-31-2007, 02:02 PM   #37
greer
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Colorado Uli,

You have a single-spark bike with shim over bucket. It'll be easier, at least that's what I keep telling myself, haven't had to adjust anything yet. And we can use KLR shims, supposed to be cheaper,too. If you decide to use BMW shims it pays to shop around a little, evidently the price of shims varies a great deal shop to shop; seems like somebody said Irv Seaver had extra-good prices. Look here for how-to:
http://faq.f650.com/GSFAQs/Valve_Shim_Change_FAQ_GS.htm

Sarah
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Old 08-31-2007, 05:16 PM   #38
evanphoto
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nice going, dakar guy

hey dakar guy,
would you do a service write up for me on advrider? as you know, i have an xr650L and it needs some service. what is your cell number? What are your shop hours?



Maybe we can put on the header pipes and adjust the carb. I also need my brakes done and fluids changed. I haven't changed my brake fluid in years! It is a 2003, do I need to worry about a fork oil change?

I am also thinking of getting a ktm 530exc r or ktm640a. I haven't decided yet. Question is, i know you know the honda inside and out but are you comfortable working on ktm's?

And as far as b rob's bike, it needs a chain lube and you need a few beers!
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Old 09-01-2007, 06:37 PM   #39
Wannabex2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado Uli
Man, and I was actually considering doing this job on my '02 Dakar over the weekend. Now, I'm not so sure about it. Yeah, I do all my own light maintenance and have even put in an Ohlins shock without much difficulty, but this looks like a good way to screw up the engine even worse then it was if you're not an experienced mechanic with a full set of tools.

How much is the BMW shop gonna charge me for the shim change (assuming they need changing)?
My shop was going to charge about $350 for the 6k service, which includes a valve check.

It can easily be done over the weekend, if you plan it right. Removing all the parts to get to the valve cover takes about 20-30 minutes max. The only delay you may have is if you're valves are out of spec and you don't have any shims. Then you have to get some.

IIRC, the tools you need are mostly torx bits, a 6mm and 8mm allen, a tdc bolt (home made), a 15/16" and 10mm socket and feeler guages. I use a torque wrench to button everything back down to specs.

Changing the oil takes about 15-30min. depending on how long you let the oil drain. I bought a cheap funnel with a diameter slighty larger than the oil filter and cut it it so it would jam up nicely below the filter housing to minimize the mess. I stuck the end of the funnel and to a 24oz bottle (a 12oz wold work) and taped it so the oil would drain into that.

Once you check the valves. Write down the specs. If one needs changing
then pull the cams out and measure all the shims. It will help you be ready for next time.

Before I pulled the cams on mine I marked my the position of the cam marks at TDC on my yellow chain guide with a permanent marker.

I pull the cams out on mine (instead if tensioner bolt method). It was difficult to get the back one out first, but once I placed a round lever in the cog hole and gently pulled up on it it came off easy.

If you need more details than this awesome post provides, check the FAQS at http://www.f650.com there's even two videos on checking the valves.
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Old 09-01-2007, 07:04 PM   #40
JAFO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougRoost
What a PITA. Makes any other bike look brilliant. I know what d/s bike I WON'T be buying.
s: same here. thing is, I've had a hardon for an F650GS for a while now. Wanted to trade my 650R for one.

Glad that's past
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Old 09-01-2007, 10:16 PM   #41
Wannabex2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAFO
s: same here. thing is, I've had a hardon for an F650GS for a while now. Wanted to trade my 650R for one.

Glad that's past
Granted the first time will take you much longer, but it takes relatively very little time to do this, especially if the valves are in spec. Plus by taking all that stuff off, it forces you to inspect the air cleaner, battery, etc...
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Old 09-02-2007, 04:07 AM   #42
JDLuke
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I've been gearing myself up to do roughly this same service myself. Most of the work doesn't bother me, but the idea of digging into the valve train has always been a bit intimidating. This post has certainly shed some much-needed the process.


I will say that the Dakar is easier than the standard 650GS in one respect: The fork oil change. Those threaded caps must make the job much easier. For some reason BMW saw fit to use a plain stainless steel circlip (really just a piece of wire, no grab holes) as the device to hold the plug in the top of the stock GS forks. I swear I'm gonna upgrade to either Dakar or possibly WP forks before I have to dig those out again.
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Old 09-02-2007, 04:48 AM   #43
spanker
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my additional, tedious, lengthy but important .02

I just recently did the valves on my GS. Per this post, don't mess with the chain tensioner, you don't have to. The most important thing is installing the locking bolt correctly @ TDC. Where I deviate is tie-wrapping the cam sprockets to the cam chain; don't bother. Before you do anything (after the locking bolt is installed), make an ACCURATE visual reference of where the cam sprocket alignment marks are. Do this AFTER you physically reach down and push in the chain tensioner and let it spring back. Note that with the chain tensioner installed and putting pressure on chain, there is no slack and correspondingly, no rocking of parts (should I rotate CW, CCW before I install the locking bolt and make a visual reference?). The point is just pull the cams out completely to give you maximum work space. Who cares if the chain is indexed to the cam sprockets? The important thing is that the cams are indexed to the CRANKSHAFT, not the chain. Just put it back the same way you found it! I tied a 1/8 in dia short length of rope through a hole in the intake cam sprocket at approx the 3 oclock position facing the bike from the port side. Grasp the rope, pull UP and AFT with your right hand while gently prying up the far-side of the cam with your left hand. Pulling on the rope will have the same effect of turning the cam sprocket CCW, which in turn puts pressure on the chain tensioner. This action provides just enough slack to pop the cam out of the lower cam cradle. When you are done with your shim job, put the exhaust cam back in first. Make sure there is no slack between the crank sprocket and the cam sprocket. LOOK at your index marks on the exhaust cam sprocket. Are they in the same spot they were when you took the cam out? If not, index the cam one tooth + or - and look again. Install the intake cam the same way you took it out. You have to take an educated guess as to where the marks will align. Pull UP and AFT with your rope through the cam sprocket while gently pushing DOWN on the cam. You will feel the chain tensioner compressing as you pull, and pop it right in. Are the marks where they were to start with? If not, re-index and try again. This must take all of five minutes max without tie-wrapping the crap out of everything. Before you button everything up, reach down and collapse the chain tensioner and let it spring back several times and release to make sure it didn't get hung up and an give you a false index mark reading. One last thing. When you tighten up the cam cradles (upper and lower), the bottom one is pinned with alignment dowels, the top one is not. Align the top cradle port-to-starboard with the lower cradle by observing and vertically aligning the machined vertical surface where the top chain guide bolts to. I wish I had pics but I wasn't smart enough to take any. This isn't hard, it's just tedious PITA work on these 650's.
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Old 09-03-2007, 02:24 PM   #44
Brooklyn Rob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evanphoto
hey dakar guy,
would you do a service write up for me on advrider? as you know, i have an xr650L and it needs some service. what is your cell number? What are your shop hours?



Maybe we can put on the header pipes and adjust the carb. I also need my brakes done and fluids changed. I haven't changed my brake fluid in years! It is a 2003, do I need to worry about a fork oil change?

I am also thinking of getting a ktm 530exc r or ktm640a. I haven't decided yet. Question is, i know you know the honda inside and out but are you comfortable working on ktm's?

And as far as b rob's bike, it needs a chain lube and you need a few beers!
It also needs some mirrors.
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Old 09-03-2007, 09:51 PM   #45
dakarboy OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spanker
I just recently did the valves on my GS. Per this post, don't mess with the chain tensioner, you don't have to. The most important thing is installing the locking bolt correctly @ TDC. Where I deviate is tie-wrapping the cam sprockets to the cam chain; don't bother. Before you do anything (after the locking bolt is installed), make an ACCURATE visual reference of where the cam sprocket alignment marks are. Do this AFTER you physically reach down and push in the chain tensioner and let it spring back. Note that with the chain tensioner installed and putting pressure on chain, there is no slack and correspondingly, no rocking of parts (should I rotate CW, CCW before I install the locking bolt and make a visual reference?). The point is just pull the cams out completely to give you maximum work space. Who cares if the chain is indexed to the cam sprockets? The important thing is that the cams are indexed to the CRANKSHAFT, not the chain. Just put it back the same way you found it! I tied a 1/8 in dia short length of rope through a hole in the intake cam sprocket at approx the 3 oclock position facing the bike from the port side. Grasp the rope, pull UP and AFT with your right hand while gently prying up the far-side of the cam with your left hand. Pulling on the rope will have the same effect of turning the cam sprocket CCW, which in turn puts pressure on the chain tensioner. This action provides just enough slack to pop the cam out of the lower cam cradle. When you are done with your shim job, put the exhaust cam back in first. Make sure there is no slack between the crank sprocket and the cam sprocket. LOOK at your index marks on the exhaust cam sprocket. Are they in the same spot they were when you took the cam out? If not, index the cam one tooth + or - and look again. Install the intake cam the same way you took it out. You have to take an educated guess as to where the marks will align. Pull UP and AFT with your rope through the cam sprocket while gently pushing DOWN on the cam. You will feel the chain tensioner compressing as you pull, and pop it right in. Are the marks where they were to start with? If not, re-index and try again. This must take all of five minutes max without tie-wrapping the crap out of everything. Before you button everything up, reach down and collapse the chain tensioner and let it spring back several times and release to make sure it didn't get hung up and an give you a false index mark reading. One last thing. When you tighten up the cam cradles (upper and lower), the bottom one is pinned with alignment dowels, the top one is not. Align the top cradle port-to-starboard with the lower cradle by observing and vertically aligning the machined vertical surface where the top chain guide bolts to. I wish I had pics but I wasn't smart enough to take any. This isn't hard, it's just tedious PITA work on these 650's.
i agree with almost everything you said. your point about the sprockets and chains is spot on. who cares? the referance points and crank position are whats important. also, the crank tool is worthless and dangerous. if you forget it, which is easy to do, and you dont rotate the motor over by hand before you start it, which you should, you run the risk of snapping off part of the tool. anyway, will finish the rest of this tomorrow or the next. just got back from oh and am friggin tired.
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