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Old 06-18-2009, 02:21 PM   #211
AugustFalcon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PETDOC
...Does this mean that when Loctite 271 has been used that it will take 275 F-lb (N-m ?) for a bolt to unscrew?
I'm just a dummy with no special knowledge but from my limited reading I think that to break loose, i.e., unscrew a nut treated with Loctite 271 it will require the application of 250 F-lb or N-m as the case may be.

My guess is that if you had a bolt treated with 271 and allowed the nut to set up and then tried to tighten it down the shaft through the solidified 271 it would take the prevailing torque to turn the nut. The use of a prevailing torque figure with a loctite type of fixing agent doesn't seem to make much sense given the definition of prevailing torque.
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Old 06-24-2009, 09:52 AM   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PETDOC
Dirty
I assume, perhaps incorrectly, the break loose number applies to the torque needed to break the bond, but what does the prevailing number apply to?
Petdoc- Sorry for the delay in responding. I was out all last week at a Boy Scout Summer Camp with Tiny D and have just now gotten caught up with everything.

The breakloose and prevailing loosening torque numbers I posted aren't foot lbs., they make reference to inch/lbs.

1 foot/lb = 12 inch/lbs
50 foot/lbs. = 600inch/lbs
Get it?

All of our quoted strength specs relate to an ISO test # 10964 on M10 Steel Nuts and bolts. Realizing this, using larger or smaller threaded fasteners than M10's we tested on, you'll get different breakloose or prevailing strength values.

Breakloose torque is the effort needed to remove the induced clamp load.

Prevailing torque is the effort required once the breakloose torque has been overcome to make that first round of loosening.

By understanding that different threadlockers have different breakloose and prevailing strengths, when mounting a stud you wish to remain in a housing it is suggested to use a stronger threadlocker than the threadlocker used on a nut which must be threaded onto the stud.

By doing this when the nut is removed, the breakloose and subsequent prevailing loosening torque will be lower than the b/l and prev. torque of the threadlocker used to fix the stud to the housing.

For an exhaust manifold stud, the new ultra-high temp high strength threadlocker should be used to fix the stud to the head, and a ultra-high temp medium strength threadlocker should be used on the nut used to fix the header to the head.

Dig?

Dirty
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Old 06-25-2009, 07:54 PM   #213
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Thanks Dirty.
One point for clarification--are these torque values based on removing/turning a bolt with or without heating to 249 degrees F?
It would seem if the latter (i.e., no heat) you could easily remove a bolt applied with red loctitte (271) without heat, which based on my own experience is not true.
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Old 06-25-2009, 11:21 PM   #214
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Just read the whole thread. Been using Loctite for years, but now know much more about it. Thanks Dirty.

Now I'm going to ask a few I haven't seen tackled yet.

When I was a Harley tech, I distinctly remember "Green" loctite being used for something. My memory says it was for things even red couldn't handle. What was that stuff? I don't need it, just curious as I've not seen it used anywhere since. I don't remember the number or anything.

One more, after working in the Harley shop, I had a gig in medical equipment repair. While doing that, I came across a product we used called "Black Max". It was like Superglue, only black (duh). I'm 99% sure it was a loctite product. How is it different than superglue? Again, just curious as I've not seen the stuff used anywhere else.
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Old 06-26-2009, 10:55 AM   #215
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Nitsuj-

The anaerobic products that are stronger than threadlockers (designed for mechanical thread engagement) are called Retaining Compounds.

R/C's are designed for cylindrical engagement. Engagement where threads are not present-like mounting bearings, pulleys, sheaves, keyed assemblies and the like. Think of a retaining compound as a threadlocker on steroids. The strongest threadlocker is we have has roughly the same breakloose and prevailing loosening torque as the weakest retaining compound if it were used in the very same threadlocking application.

Retaining Compounds when used in a threadlocking application are very strong and likely an overkill in most every application out there. Threaded fasteners will likely shear the bolt heads off if removal is attempted without heating up the fastener first-until you see that first whisp of smoke coming off of the retaining compound. At that point the material has broken down enough to allow removal without fastener or stubstrate destruction. Beware though-an oil seal, O-ring, etc. might get damaged as a result of the localized heat, so beware.

Beware! Everyone has been warned.

Black Max is a rubber toughened cyanoacrylate ($3 word for super glue/instant adhesive) and was developed because a mfg couldn't get the club face inserts on their drivers to withstand thousands of ball impacts. Rubber was added to a instant adhesive to absorb ball impact.

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Old 07-30-2009, 06:22 PM   #216
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I have a question that I don't think has been covered. I need to fix threaded exhaust stubbs, to slip exhuast pipes over, into the head of my old Triumph. These are standard OEM, but continually come loose. Standard blue or red loctite doesn't seem to have much effect as the temps are obviously very high (directly off the exhaust port, about 1" from the valve itself).

The threads are worn from vibration and being loose, but are still effective. Is there a product that will seal these threads, prevent vabration from loosening them off...and take the heat??
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Old 08-01-2009, 07:02 AM   #217
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I read a post on anther MC thread stating once red loctite was heated to 250 degrees F it crystallizes and is no longer a strong thread locker. Is this true--i.e., if you heat up a bolt, but do not disturb it the loctite, once cool, is no longer good?
If this is the case I would think applying loctite anywhere close to the combustion chamber would result in poor thread locking.
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Old 08-02-2009, 10:41 PM   #218
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Checking in from the Loctite booth at Sturgis-

JTT, we have two brand spanking new ultra high-temp thread lockers good for 650F continuous in red and blue. I don't have my catalog on me right now but will get you the part numbers ASAP.

One of these just might fill the bill, the only thing that concerns me is that you mentioned the blind stud holes (something I never thought I would say on an internet forum by the way) are somewhat wallowed out. These new products cure through a fairly large gap, but hitting the stud with a shot of Primer N would force the material to cure through the excessively large thread root gap.

PETDOC- For the usual non high temp threadlockers, you'd need to heat them up to 500F for 5 minutes if you go by the book, but as your chief political advisor I say heat that puppy up until you see that first wisp of smoke, then loosen her up.

Once you heat up a threaded fastener for removal, it needs to be reapplied.

For the new 650F red and blue threadlockers, they haven't listed the heat removal temperatures, but you'd need to heat it up untill you see that wisp of smoke and you'd be golden.

Beware though, too much heat might destroy surrounding oil seals or nearby plastic parts, or might even make for some interesting skin branding shapes.

Sturgis is f*cking nuts. Chicks walking down main street with nothing but pasties, fat chicks in thongs, and way too many assless chaps for one lifetime. Haven't had a chance to get to any of the campgrounds where the funky stuff happens, but I have friends with cameras.

And all the pirates say Arrrrrrrrrrrrr.

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dirty_sanchez screwed with this post 08-02-2009 at 10:50 PM
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Old 08-03-2009, 06:14 AM   #219
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Thanks Dirty! For more clarity, these stubbs are bits of 1.5" diameter pipe threaded on the OD. They thread into the exhaust port of the head, however do not actually bottom out on anything as far as I can tell. I figure based on how they are arranged, that they really should be pipe thread (tapered), however are not, which leads to vibration shaking them loose.

I appreciate the help and will standby for your updates. Perhaps a Leatt brace might help with your whiplash exposure from the rally?

Thanks again,
Joe

Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_sanchez
Checking in from the Loctite booth at Sturgis-

JTT, we have two brand spanking new ultra high-temp thread lockers good for 650F continuous in red and blue. I don't have my catalog on me right now but will get you the part numbers ASAP.

One of these just might fill the bill, the only thing that concerns me is that you mentioned the blind stud holes (something I never thought I would say on an internet forum by the way) are somewhat wallowed out. These new products cure through a fairly large gap, but hitting the stud with a shot of Primer N would force the material to cure through the excessively large thread root gap.
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Old 08-03-2009, 06:31 AM   #220
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JTT- I still can't get a visual of the setup as you describe, photos would help...me and other guys who might have a similar problem down the road.

A Leat would be nice, but at least the Amsoil guys are next door for some personal lubricant should the need arise.

Peace,

Dirty
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Old 08-03-2009, 08:31 AM   #221
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I think it's my terminology...when I say "stubbs" I don't mean "studs" Pictures are truly worth a thousand words



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Old 08-04-2009, 06:07 AM   #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitsuj
Just read the whole thread. Been using Loctite for years, but now know much more about it. Thanks Dirty.

Now I'm going to ask a few I haven't seen tackled yet.

When I was a Harley tech, I distinctly remember "Green" loctite being used for something. My memory says it was for things even red couldn't handle. What was that stuff? I don't need it, just curious as I've not seen it used anywhere since. I don't remember the number or anything.

One more, after working in the Harley shop, I had a gig in medical equipment repair. While doing that, I came across a product we used called "Black Max". It was like Superglue, only black (duh). I'm 99% sure it was a loctite product. How is it different than superglue? Again, just curious as I've not seen the stuff used anywhere else.
The only application I can remember using the green stuff on was when installing cylinder sleeves in an engine block.
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Old 08-24-2009, 09:12 PM   #223
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loctite RTV

This is a great thread - thank you Dirty.

I have learned and subsequently forgotten a whole lot about threadlocking compounds here, but what about sealants? I am getting ready to re-install the exhaust flange on my KTM 300EXC, which appears to have factory sealant on it, and wonder which product I should use. Any thoughts? Thanks.
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Old 09-07-2009, 09:07 PM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_sanchez
If you have a container of threadlocker, threadsealant, gasket eliminator, or retaining compound and it is sticky from the product leaching out, that container is ready for the trash.
Dear Mr. Dirty...

That piece of wisdom (which, really, shouldn't need to be pointed out to adults with half a brain - which I apparently lack) alone was well worth reading through this thread.

Anybody want some containers of circa 1974 Locktite? It's still blue!

Me go shopping tomorrow... the stick stuff sounds like more fun anyways.
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Old 09-07-2009, 09:22 PM   #225
dirty_sanchez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jäger
Dear Mr. Dirty...

That piece of wisdom (which, really, shouldn't need to be pointed out to adults with half a brain - which I apparently lack) alone was well worth reading through this thread.

Anybody want some containers of circa 1974 Locktite? It's still blue!

Me go shopping tomorrow... the stick stuff sounds like more fun anyways.
Thanks, Good move- the official shelf life on the sticks is twice as long. What year is this?

I appreciate the formalities, but Mr. Dirty sounds...urr...well....like I need to pack a lunch and spend some time in confession.

Dirty
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