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Old 11-09-2009, 08:12 PM   #241
warewolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_sanchez
Warewolf- Using Nylon insert nuts along with a threadlocker are sort of a belt AND suspenders sort of thing. Nylon insert nuts are designed to be a one use only type nut believe it or not.
Ta, yes I did know nylocks are single use. They are heaps harder to get on when new - it's a bit of a give-away.

The context was rear sprocket nuts. KTM says to use 243 on the bolts, but the nuts are not nylocs but something else with an ovalised bore.
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Old 11-09-2009, 08:25 PM   #242
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243 is a new and improved version of the old 242.

243 is a slight bit stronger than 242.

No need to shake the bottle at the beginning of the day, and it's not as picky about working on less than perfectly cleaned and degreased threaded fasteners.

I use belts and suspenders by the way.

Dirty
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Old 11-10-2009, 05:19 AM   #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_sanchez
Good question.

It's worth $64,000.

Good Question.

Dirty

And I collect- how?
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Old 11-10-2009, 05:39 AM   #244
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Have you ever heard of the "Free Beer Tomorrow" sign?

Get with me tomorrow. OK?

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Old 11-10-2009, 08:13 AM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_sanchez
Yep, localized heat in the form of a soldering iron, a blow torch, flaming WD-40, etc until you see that first whisp of smoke and you're ace in the hole. Be warned, an oil seal or some other part that does not play well with heat or open flame might be in close proximity to that heat source.
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Dirty,
I had to remove the rear pivot pins on my BMW R1150GS, which had been set at the factory with a Loctite-like product, requiring 240 degrees F before unscrewing. The pivot pins are screwed into the finished swingarm and in close proximity to a rubber boot over the rear U-joint. While many have used a torch for this, I found a heat gun and laser temp gauge worked fine. I caused no discoloration or damage to surrounding parts, and have subsequently removed the replaced pivots pins (loctite 271) using the same technique with the same result.
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Old 11-10-2009, 11:04 AM   #246
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Doc- Good to hear you were able to control the heat.

I tell folks to be ware of the damage to ruber parts in close proximity to rubber plastic parts all of the time.

Glad you took care of the problem without any mishaps.

Dirty
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Old 11-10-2009, 04:39 PM   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_sanchez
Yep, 567PST. Good for 400F, 10,000psi, NSF 61 rated, prevents stainless from galling, and makes for a rather nice compliment to Russian Caviar-or spread lightly on toast with jam.

The pn. for a 6ml tube is 56707

Dirty
AWESOME!! I already have a BIG tube downstairs that i use for petcocks and other gasoline-type stuff. Helloooooo stainless NPT fittings!

Can I also use it for a salad dressing?
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Old 11-10-2009, 07:33 PM   #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by datchew
AWESOME!! I already have a BIG tube downstairs that i use for petcocks and other gasoline-type stuff. Helloooooo stainless NPT fittings!

Can I also use it for a salad dressing?
567PST, 15 year old balsamic vinegar, and Rotella 5w40 Synth makes for an epic sensation salad.

Yes, you may use it!

Dirty
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Old 11-10-2009, 08:48 PM   #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_sanchez
567PST, 15 year old balsamic vinegar, and Rotella 5w40 Synth makes for an epic sensation salad.

Yes, you may use it!

Dirty
And you'll feel all clean and tingly afterwards.

Also the weight loss will make the bike feel like it's got 5 extra HP.
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Old 11-22-2009, 12:00 AM   #250
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Loctite 648 - is 262 a reasonable alternative?

Hi Dirty,


Great thread! Thank you.

I have a couple of questions relating to securing the starter cluch mechanism to the back of my magneto rotor on my KTM990. I removed the 6 x 6mm HT cap screws without heat (but a little hand-held effort) and found a greenish-blue clearish lacquer thread compound on the bolts. It was difficult to chip away but I managed to clean up both the male and female threads. As a final prep I degreased them with a few applications of brake cleaner and screwed the bolts in & out a few times.


Questions:

Loctite 648 (& 15Nm) is spec'd in the manual - but 648 is not listed in the Australian catalogue. I note from the German site it is "Festigkeit: Hoch" -high strength. Can you please advise the properties of this compound that differ from Loctite 262? I noted somewhere 603 was an option but I was unable to find that here either.

Will 262 do the equivalent job to 648 for this application? I have bought some. Is there a better choice (that is available in Australia).

Do you think with high tensile bolts and (??) stainless female threads that I should be able to break the threadlock without heat in the future?

I've noted through this thread that heat is the removal solution for red loctite. Does the heat temporarily melt the compound or does it permanently destroy the chemical bonds? I'm thinking to the future when I have to remove it again and not wanting to apply too much heat to the associated magnets in the rotor. I was thinking of just heating the bolts locally and letting them cool if I couldn't shift them initially (next time around).

I've included a photo of the back of the rotor and the starter clutch mechanism where the bolts come through. I think it is subject to faily high operating temperatures, certainly synthetic oil and probably shock loads when the clutch catches on starting.



Cheers


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Old 11-22-2009, 12:54 AM   #251
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Ah, NPT, the only pipe thread system in the world with a DESIGNED in leak path, what were they thinking.

NPT has made my life hell in the past, as I live in an english dominated engineering world, BSP just works, NPT has to be MADE to work, and yes, the fix is loctite or equivalent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by datchew
AWESOME!! I already have a BIG tube downstairs that i use for petcocks and other gasoline-type stuff. Helloooooo stainless NPT fittings!

Can I also use it for a salad dressing?
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Old 11-22-2009, 06:45 AM   #252
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Bushn-

I'm not doubting you can't find 648, but it is listed as a worldwide available product in the US catalog.

Retaining Compounds are products designed to strengthen bearing fits and prevent keyed assemblies from wallowing out.

It is important to think of retaining compounds such as 648, and all of the 6XX series products as a threadlocker on steroids. Retaining compounds are STRONG as compared to traditional threadlockers. RC's are designed for cylindrical engagement while threadlockers are designed for mechanical threaded engagement.

Since RC's and TL's are designed for different sorts of applications, we show strength values in shear strength for RC's but show breakloose and prevailing torque for threadlockers. Gap filling ability isn't even mentioned in the threadlocker data.

One thing we need to consider in this particular application is to wonder why KTM (who no doubt has a Austrian Loctite Rep working closely with them to assist in spec'ing products) has chosen a retaining compound instead of a threadlocker for this application.

262 more than likely will work just fine in your application, but there are more suitable and stronger products to suggest.

The following link is from the Loctite Austrailia. If you can't find 648, go with another product with a similar sheer strength.

http://au.iloctite.com/en/loctite-64...-648-retaining

You are correct, heat will very likely be needed to soften the material enough for you to loosen the fastener. One the material is heated to the point you see that first wisp of smoke, loosen it up. As suggested before, full size blow torches are an overkill. As the chief purveyor of peace, love, and glue for ADVdom, small blow torches used by crack/meth-heads is the ideal source of localized heat without putting too much heat into your parts.

Once a threadlocker or any other anaerobic chemistry has had heat applied to it, and then let cool, without loosening the assembly, the ultimate strength has been sacrificed and the assembly should be taken apart and have threadlocker, retaining compounds reapplied.

Dirty
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dirty_sanchez screwed with this post 11-24-2009 at 04:46 AM
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Old 11-22-2009, 07:26 AM   #253
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Huh.

So what about higher temp uses, like exhaust manifolds or even brake rotors- does the heat compromise the integrity of the bond?


Thanks again. Still waiting on the $64k check for my last question- will you ask accounting??
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Old 11-22-2009, 07:53 AM   #254
dirty_sanchez
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Huh.

So what about higher temp uses, like exhaust manifolds or even brake rotors- does the heat compromise the integrity of the bond?


Thanks again. Still waiting on the $64k check for my last question- will you ask accounting??
Times are tough in "Sticky Land". We have been on a rice and beans, beans and rice diet for 6 months with no-name saltines topped with gov't cheese on Sundays. Can we issue an IOU....tomorrow?

We're handing out free beer tomorrow by the way as well.

As a rule, unless the bottle or tube explicitly says HIGH TEMPERATURE, anaerobic chemistries like threadlockers, thread sealants, gasket eliminators, and retaining componds are all good for 300F

Threadlockers like 294, 246, 266, and 272 are good for 450F.

The two newest threadlockers we have happen to be resistant to 650F. These are a blue medium strength 2422, and a red high strength 2620.

For the two specific applications you mentioned above, 2422 would be suitable.

Dirty
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Old 11-22-2009, 09:43 AM   #255
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KTM990 / Loctite 648

Hmm, very interesting Dirty. That link you gave me had just the information I was looking for earlier. I obviously didn't look for long enough! I think you realise I'm not putting the threadlock/ retaining compaound on the shaft/ keyway and it is going on the six threads in the photo.

I think from looking at the TDSs in the link that the 262 would have to be a temporary solution. I need to get it back together and operational to ship it to NZ soon. So I'll use the 262 as a back up.

I can also see why KTM chose the 648. It got some good properties. I will try Loctite Australia again today (once everyone wakes up and goes to work -it's 04:30hrs here ).

If I can't get the 648 I'm going to try for the 620 then the 603. The 620 seems to have some very interesting heat/ aging properties and similar strength and resistance properties to the 648.

Thank you for your help. May you have many hours of great riding.

Cheers


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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_sanchez
Bushn-

I'm not doubting you can't find 648, but it is listed as a worldwide available product in the US catalog.

Retaining Compounds are products designed to strengthen bearing fits and prevent keyed assemblies from wallowing out.

It is important to think of retaining compounds such as 648, and all of the 6XX series products as a threadlocker on steroids. Retaining compounds are STRONG as compared to traditional threadlockers. RC's are designed for cylindrical engagement while threadlockers are designed for mechanical threaded engagement.
....

One thing we need to consider in this particular application is to wonder why KTM (who no doubt has a Austrian Loctite Rep working closely with them to assist in spec'ing products) has chosen a retaining compound instead of a threadlocker for this application.
......

The following link is from the Loctite Austrailia. If you can't find 648, go with another product with a similar sheer strength.
....

Dirty
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