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Old 11-24-2009, 01:43 AM   #256
warewolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_sanchez
It is important to think of retaining compounds such as 648, and all of the 6XX series products as a threadlocker on steroids. Retaining compounds are STRONG as compared to traditional threadlockers. RC's are designed for cylindrical engagement while threadlockers are designed for mechanical threaded engagement.

Since RC's and TL's are designed for different sorts of applications, we show strength values in shear strength for RC's and breakloose and prevailing torque. Gap filling ability isn't even mentioned in the threadlocker data.

One thing we need to consider in this particular application is to wonder why KTM (who no doubt has a Austrian Loctite Rep working closely with them to assist in spec'ing products) has chosen a retaining compound instead of a threadlocker for this application.
I'm doing this same job right now on my 640A.

Here's what the '03 manual says:
Quote:
– Heat the flywheel to a temperature of approx. 80° C (176° F) and remove the 6 bolts.
! CAUTION !
MAKE SURE THAT THE FLYWHEEL IS NOT HEATED BEYOND 80° C (176° F) TO AVOID LOOSENING OF THE MAGNETS.
– Carefully tap the side of the freewheel hub with a plastic hammer and take off the freewheel hub.
– Apply Loctite 648 to the flange surface A of the flywheel and the freewheel hub.
– Mount the freewheel hub on the flywheel.
– Apply Loctite 648 to the thread of the bolts and tighten them crosswise (18 Nm).
! CAUTION !
ALWAYS USE NEW BOLTS (12.9) AND APPLY LOCTITE 648 TO THE THREADS.
Perhaps KTM only wanted to use one product in that area?

btw I managed to undo the 6 bolts by hand, when cold. (my mechanic friend said to try it before applying any heat). I would guess removal torque would've been in the 20-40Nm range. However, the mating (flange) surface did not have any compound on it - maybe the heat is needed to loosen that surface join, as you probably can't twist it? My bike is a 2005 and there are some differences to the '03; possibly they found this to be overkill?
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Old 11-24-2009, 03:45 AM   #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warewolf
I'm doing this same job right now on my 640A.

Here's what the '03 manual says:
Perhaps KTM only wanted to use one product in that area?

btw I managed to undo the 6 bolts by hand, when cold. (my mechanic friend said to try it before applying any heat). I would guess removal torque would've been in the 20-40Nm range. However, the mating (flange) surface did not have any compound on it - maybe the heat is needed to loosen that surface join, as you probably can't twist it? My bike is a 2005 and there are some differences to the '03; possibly they found this to be overkill?
Hi there fellow Kiwibiker,

My 990 manual doesn't have anywhere near as much info in it (or they've placed it in another area, which is a trick they seem to do - spread the info around the manual to make it harder for average Joe to follow...). So, wow, you didn't even need an ratchet & allen key socket to get the screws off! Impressive! I'll have to watch myself if I take on anyone from Marlborough area.

For any fellow Victorians that might be trying to find 648 - I got it from Bearing Wholesalers in Bayswater, Melb for under $50 (50mL bottle). Other stockist quoted by the Aus Loctite customer service were Blackwoods of Scoresby and CBC of Bayswater. Blackwoods and Bearing Wholesalers had it in stock.

The viscosity of the 648 was fairly low and I think a bit probably would have seeped between the mating (flange) surfaces.

Cheers


Bnbs
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Old 11-24-2009, 05:53 AM   #258
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It doesn't surprise me that you found no material on those allen screws.

I see it all the time-the Engineers spec something in for certain assemblies, but the assemblymen on the line that know how to build a better engine/widget than those e'ffin Engineers, so they choose not to use build procecures lined out by the higher ups.

That discovery has me thinking that I might need to check tha assembly on my bike.

A warning in the manual saying not to heat the flywheel past 176F (80C) is well below the normal engine operating temperature. I wonder if they mistakenly swapped their units of measurement. This seemingly innocent mistake has happened before believe it or not.

176C is 348.8F by the way. 648 will begin to soften, lowering it's grip on the parts just north of 300F.

Dirty
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dirty_sanchez screwed with this post 11-24-2009 at 05:59 AM
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Old 11-24-2009, 01:24 PM   #259
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There was plenty of green stuff on the screws, just none on the mating surface between the freewheel hub and flywheel.

You are quite likely correct about an error with the units.
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Old 12-11-2009, 02:55 PM   #260
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Great thread Sanchez, I have read it from start to finish and been edju-mu-cated and entertained the whole way.

On the subjects of RC, I have a carbide bushing that is "supposed" * to be press fit in a steel housing . Bushing OD is .375 and said bushing's mission is life is be a guide for a .151 diameter punch. Bushing has come out twice with 648 applied per the factory blueprint. When bushing comes out it crashes a $900 mold set.

Bushing/guide combo is bathed in a Vasco 5000 emulsified lubricant. Maybe that is attacking the 648 somehow?

I have looked at various other Loctite CRs, and maybe 603 looks good but I maybe there is a better solution??t.


* at the present time it move in and easily but without any discernable slop.
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Old 12-11-2009, 05:53 PM   #261
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do any of you guys have trouble finding Loctite brand thread lock?

I went to Ace hardware which stocked other Loctite products but only Permatex thread compounds. I went to Pepboys and found the same situation. What gives?
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Old 12-12-2009, 07:39 AM   #262
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Pilkguns- Check your PM, I need to get you in touch with your local Loctite guy to help you get this sorted.

Fishyhead- You won't find the Loctite Quicksticks at Ace Hardware/Lowe's/Home Depot-type stores. You can find this particular line of Loctite products at any of our Authorized Industrial Distributors. Nationally folks like Motion Industries, Applied Industrial Technologies, Grainger, Fastenal all stock Loctite Quicksticks.

Dirty
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Old 12-12-2009, 09:37 AM   #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_sanchez
Pilkguns- Check your PM, I need to get you in touch with your local Loctite guy to help you get this sorted.

Fishyhead- You won't find the Loctite Quicksticks at Ace Hardware/Lowe's/Home Depot-type stores. You can find this particular line of Loctite products at any of our Authorized Industrial Distributors. Nationally folks like Motion Industries, Applied Industrial Technologies, Grainger, Fastenal all stock Loctite Quicksticks.

Dirty
Well now you tell me. Went out a couple of weeks ago after reading this thread and bought some blue liquid (248?) from Lowes. I really wanted the stick though. Oh well I'm planning to use it all reassembling my bike after the winter overhaul.

Threadlocker question for you DS. I ordered some bolts from Suzuki, they came with the dry thread lock pre-applied, which I recognized from this thread thankyou very much. Since I don't know what they used or how old it is and the parts aren't critical (sub subframe fender support) can I scrape the dry stuff off and use blue? Wire brush for removal?

Jamie
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Old 12-12-2009, 10:24 AM   #264
dirty_sanchez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SloSolo2
Well now you tell me. Went out a couple of weeks ago after reading this thread and bought some blue liquid (248?) from Lowes. I really wanted the stick though. Oh well I'm planning to use it all reassembling my bike after the winter overhaul.

Threadlocker question for you DS. I ordered some bolts from Suzuki, they came with the dry thread lock pre-applied, which I recognized from this thread thankyou very much. Since I don't know what they used or how old it is and the parts aren't critical (sub subframe fender support) can I scrape the dry stuff off and use blue? Wire brush for removal?

Jamie
I don't really see the need to remove the drilock.

I'm more of a belt and suspenders sort of Cat though. Sooo, you could put a swipe of 248 on opposite sides of the male threads at the point of engagement of the female threads and you'd be an ace in the hole.

If you did decide to remove the drilock or decide to remove old cured threadlocker from thread roots here's how I do it:

With a utility knife/carpet knife, or single edged razor blade, roll the fastener along the edge of your workbench while holding the edged tool at angle such that it engages the face of one of the thread faces-imagine you're shaving off the cured material. Change the angle of the blade to shave the other side of the threads.

I've heard of threaded fasteners flying off into the wild blue yonder if a wire wheel on a bench grinder is used. -Not saying that I have ever experienced this sort of travesty

Dirty
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Old 12-14-2009, 06:42 AM   #265
SloSolo2
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So what do you put in this stuff? It's like meth. I used it once and now I'm addicted; look how low I've sunk in less than a month.



Got sick of the arms on my desk chair coming loose so....
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Old 12-14-2009, 07:42 AM   #266
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Hello, my name is Slosolo2, and I have a problem.

Meth has so many negative connotations, please use Crack for drug comparo's in future postings.

Loose office chair and toilet seat components believe it or not are a rather dynamic application and are prime threadlocker applications.

Dirty
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Old 12-14-2009, 10:34 AM   #267
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I tried the conventional routes through Loctite websites no response, lets try here,...

Stainless steel tubing 18mm x 0.8mm wall mechanically expanded into a carbon steel tube sheet, tube hole 18.25mm so total annular clearance 0.25mm operating temp 150C I would like something with some capillary action?

Any sugestion
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Old 12-14-2009, 08:57 PM   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_sanchez
I'm not doubting you can't find 648, but it is listed as a worldwide available product in the US catalog.
...
262 more than likely will work just fine in your application, but there are more suitable and stronger products to suggest.

The following link is from the Loctite Austrailia. If you can't find 648, go with another product with a similar sheer strength.

http://au.iloctite.com/en/loctite-64...-648-retaining
dirty... So I was in at my engineering supplies place talking Loctite. 648 was available, but in a minimum size of 50mL... so we were looking at alternatives. Yes, KTM sell it in a 24mL pack, but likely 3x the price of the 50mL bottle. While looking for a 648 substitute, we found it doesn't appear in any Australasian catalogues and my mate immediately supposed it has been/will be superseded. Any thoughts on that?

I mentioned the stick version of 243, he had the 248 stick there but it was 3x the price of the 10mL bottle so I passed. I only use 1mL a year as it is

And right beside the 248 was 668, a stick version similar to 648, listed on the page you referenced above. Is it a good substitute? Again it was dearer than the 50mL bottle so I 'stuck' with the 648. btw I'm rebuilding the water pump, KTM say to mount the shaft seal with 648... so that's another use for my 50mL

Thanks heaps for all your advice here fellah!
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Old 01-15-2010, 07:30 AM   #269
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RED loctite noob

I'm a big user of blue threadlocker. Recently, during last-minute preparations for a week-long Baja ride, red threadlocker was used on subframe bolts.

What is a good tool to achieve the necessary heat level to loosen the red loctite, without scorching or destroying paint on the parts?
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Old 01-15-2010, 08:13 AM   #270
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Yossa- The gov't policy states to heat it up to 450F for 5 minutes. But speaking as the recipient of the recently created Nobel Peace Prize for Adhesion and Useless Drivel I suggest localized heat in the form of blow torches or small blue flame sources crack smoking afficianados use to the problem threaded fastener with red threadlocker long enough until that first wisp of smoke appears.

Remember, heat is always plan B. Try removal with your normal hand tools first and apply loosening torque up to the point that same threaded fastener would loosen under normal circumstances-But don't force it. You could break it.

Then apply the heat.

Dirty
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