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Old 09-17-2007, 03:45 PM   #16
dirty_sanchez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prodigium
I've used lots of loctite, lock nuts, double nuts and nylocks. I spend lots of time reading techy stuff, especially marine stuff (No surprise, retired Navy I am). I found a new kind of lock washer from a Swedish company named NordLock.
Go to Nord-lock.com, click news & media and watch the video. Convinced me to use them.
Neat gizmo those Nord-lock's are.

Three very important things they convieniently fail to mention to the uneducated consumer:

The Nord-Lock does not prevent fasteners from rusting together.
Once the break loose torque has been surpassed, prevailing torque is zero.
Different Nord-Lock washers are required for different sized threaded fasteners. These things are expensive.

I've asked several Nord-Lock factory guys all of these questions at different industry events over the years and I always get the deer in the headlights look from them when their product is challenged.

Dirty
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Old 09-17-2007, 04:35 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_sanchez
243 is an oil tolerant blue medium strength threadlocker which doesn't require you to shake it up like the older technology 242 blue threadlocker.
Hi. I've wondered about this. Why do they not just junk the 242 and only make 243? Seems the commercial product (Permatex) is often 242, but why, when 243 is easier to use because it is more tolerant of oily parts? Last question :-) Is 243 simply a newer, all-around better product than 242?
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Old 09-18-2007, 05:30 AM   #18
dirty_sanchez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by potatoho
Hi. I've wondered about this. Why do they not just junk the 242 and only make 243?

OEM's that use 242 by the freight car load would flip out at the notion of having to spec in a new product.

Seems the commercial product (Permatex) is often 242, but why when 243 is easier to usebecause it is more tolerant of oily parts?

This is a misnomer I fight every single day. Loctite and P'tex are not the same company. P'tex does not sell 242 or any other Loctite product. P'tex's blue threadlocker behaves in a similar way to the Loctite 242 but is in no way the same thing other than the color.

The general public is still under the impression that Loctite and Permatex are the same. These two companies are different. But Permatex shares the same part number as many of Loctite's products which is more than a bit underhanded if you ask me. Patents protect products, trademarks protect product names, but nothing can protect a part number.

Last question :-) Is 243 simply a newer, all-around better product than 242?
Not at all one product isn't better than the other. t depends what sort of tool you need to use.

To answer your qustion with a question, try this on....Is a sledge hammer better than a tack hammer? It is if you are trying to drive railroad spiles, but it isn't if you're trying to hang pictures.

Get it?

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Old 09-18-2007, 09:34 AM   #19
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I goofed once and used red on a Harley axle nut. Only thing on that old shovel that did not shake loose. A 4 foot 3/4" pipe makes a great breaker bar.
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Old 09-18-2007, 11:03 AM   #20
datchew
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_sanchez
The Nord-Lock does not prevent fasteners from rusting together.
Does Loctite?

this isn't a loaded question, i'm just not a big loctite user and would be interested to know. Usually, I use anti-sieze.
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Old 09-18-2007, 03:01 PM   #21
dirty_sanchez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by datchew
Does Loctite?

this isn't a loaded question, i'm just not a big loctite user and would be interested to know. Usually, I use anti-sieze.
Rust just like galvanic corrosion will take place when a certain set of ingredients is present.

Threadlockers are an anaerobic chemistry. The liquid or stick (if you're using a stick) lubricates the threads as you introduce a clamp load on a widget.

Anaerobic chemistries cure to a hard thermoset plastic when in the presence of active metals (rusts, tarnishes, corrodes, or holds a magnet) when air is removed.

In order for a threaded fastener to experience rust-lock between the nut and bolt, an air space between the two components must be present.

And since actual metal to metal threaded engagement is only 15 to 20% for class 2 threaded fasteners that leaves us 80 to 85% of air space.

Water loves to wick into this air space and cause corrosion. The water finds a nice comfortable home and begins to rust.

Once threadlockers cure in between the nut and bolt the water can't displace the cured thermoset plastic and cause rust.

In addition to putting the brakes on rustlock, threadlockers give you the added benefit of giveing you a predictable breakloose force and prevailing loosening force.

Galvanic corrosion happens when two dissimilar metals are present. If you remove one of the ingredients of the problem you've addressed and fixed the problem. You can either use fasteners made of the same substrate OR remove the airgap which allows the galvanic corrosion to occur. Threadlockers fill the airspace in between the thread engagement and stop galvanic corrosion.

I only recommend using anti-seize on applications that exceed the upper temperature ranges of threadlockers which is normally 300F or for the high temp products 450F. Applications on a bike relate to the exhaust system and mounting hardware.

I am ADVriders very own unofficial official Loctite factory rep., Dancing with the Stars Finalist, and chief spiritual advisor to Orenthal J. Simson who doesn't play well with others.

And I approved this message.

Dirty
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dirty_sanchez screwed with this post 09-18-2007 at 03:07 PM
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Old 09-18-2007, 03:36 PM   #22
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Good job

Can't decide if I like the explanation or the OJ part better.

How you been?
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Old 09-18-2007, 04:58 PM   #23
dirty_sanchez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R-dubb
Good job

Can't decide if I like the explanation or the OJ part better.

How you been?
Been great. Much better now that I discovered a broken side plate on a rather expensive X-Ring Chain, filed a warranty claim, and got a speedy delivery containing a brand new Z-Ring chain from the package purveyors dressed in brown.

Word.

Word to the wise. Please inspect each link on your chains early and often because stupid hurts.

Dirty
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Old 09-19-2007, 05:08 AM   #24
datchew
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Thx for the education.

So what's the rule of thumb for use? For anti-sieze it's as little as possible. How bout the blue stuff?


P.s. Don't pick on OJ just cause he killed his wife.
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Old 09-19-2007, 05:21 AM   #25
dirty_sanchez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by datchew
Thx for the education.

So what's the rule of thumb for use? For anti-sieze it's as little as possible. How bout the blue stuff?


P.s. Don't pick on OJ just cause he killed his wife.
Looking back a few posts back, you'll see the metal to metal content percent for class 2 threaded fasteners.

This figure is right around 20%. It's funny because when I ask even the saltiest mechanic in the bunch no matter where I am, he'll say this figure is more like 80 to 90% which is completely off base.

When we use a threadlocker we're trying to stop the nut from rocking back and forth and also trying to stop the nut from loosening from thermal expansion and contraction.

Threaded fasteners can have a higher percentage of actual mechanical threaded engagement, but years back, fastener designers realized rust lock would be a much greater problem if this engagement ratio was increased.

We're trying to fill in that 80% airspace with some sort of material to support the nut and keep it from loosening.

Sooo, how much threadlocker? You want to put 3 to 4 threads wide, all the way around the circumference of the bolt. You also want to apply the material on the area of the threads where the nut will finally come to rest once a clamp load has been introduced.

Applying threadlocker in blind-hole applications is entirely different. I'll explain if anyone is listening.

Anti-Seize...
Use it in high heat applications (higher than 300 to 450F which is the upper operating limit on threadlockers) like the exhaust manifold studs and threads on a spark plug. Believe it or not, these are the only places I use A/S on a bike.

How much to use? Anti-seize the living crap out of that bolt. Well, not really. A visible coat is needed.

Anti-Seize is nothing more than grease and metal dust or some other high lubricity solid. With A/S the grease cooks off or evaporates and metal dust is left behind which gives you the added lubricity to remove pesky nuts and bolts.

Dirty
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dirty_sanchez screwed with this post 09-19-2007 at 05:27 AM
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Old 09-19-2007, 05:50 AM   #26
datchew
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_sanchez
Applying threadlocker in blind-hole applications is entirely different. I'll explain if anyone is listening.
Bring it.


And if your fingers aren't tired yet, what about internals or fasteners that WILL be exposed to lubricants.

My only experience with this stuff is using on custom race car builds, and we only used the red stuff. So if the blue is a "softer" hold, + the corr. preventative features, i'm all over it.
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Old 09-19-2007, 11:34 AM   #27
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I try to avoid the red except in locations I can easily hit with a torch to melt later. That stuff is a bitch to unwind without damage potential. Blue is good, and now it's even better since the dirty man just sold us a few more cases...

BTW, I like anti sieze for spark plug threads. I only put it on every now and again. Seems to still be there when ever I pull plugs to spin the crank for one reason or another.
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Old 09-21-2007, 10:06 AM   #28
datchew
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looks like I lost him.

Bump to repeat the question about exposure to lubricants.
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Old 09-25-2007, 07:06 PM   #29
dirty_sanchez
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Sorry for the delay in responding to the most recent questions.

I was knee deep in a rather detailed response to the blind hole and the lubricant question, fat fingered something and lost the whole response.

Blind Hole Threadlocker Applications:

A blind hole is a threaded female hole that does not go all the way through a substrate. This hole has a bottom.

If we put a liquid threadlocker on the male threads of a bolt and then thread the bolt into the female threads the threadlocker on the male threads gets pushed out and off of the threads in the hole by the air trapped inside of the hole as the male fastener displaces the air pocket. This action leaves the threaded engagement with no threadlocker.

Instead, apply threadlocker down the side of the female threads inside of the substrate. Some say to fill the entire hole up with threadlocker. Doing so is not neccessary but will help me buy more land in Aruba.


Threadlockers exposed to Lubricants:

New threaded fasteners come to us lightly oiled to serve as a preservative.

We buy threadlockers in a liquid form, but once we apply them to a bolt and assemble the fastener, the liquid turns to a thermoset plastic which is impervious to fuels, ethylene glycol, oils, lubricants of all sorts, and since the area of threaded engagement is completely filled with a hard plastic the assembly is impervious to moisture which creates rust-lock.

If you are working on internal engine components and are using a threadlocker to keep it together, clean and degrease the threads. Compatible cleaners and degreasers are the party line, but any Electrical Contact Cleaner which is residue-free is grand.. I like to use Electrical Contact Cleaners because they evaporate so quickly, but remember to use safety glasses as this solvents will bring even a manly man to his knees if it gets into his eyes.

Just remember to give the threadlocker time to cure before adding oil, or cranking the beast if at all possible. 24 hours will give a full cure, but if it can cure overnight, it'll almost be ace.

I am ADVriders official unofficial Loctite factory rep and I approved this message.

Dirty
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dirty_sanchez screwed with this post 09-25-2007 at 07:30 PM
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Old 09-26-2007, 07:09 AM   #30
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cool. thx much
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