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Old 05-21-2008, 03:19 PM   #106
esworp
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totally inappropriate use!

I've got a 1978 dt250 with a problem..

A problem that /might/ be a job for your fine product, or at least a way for you to sell a bottle and get a step closer to Aruba.

The flywheel mates to the drive axle via a slot/key affair on the end of the axle. I just bought a resoration project of a bike (read: total basket case), and after pulling the flywheel, I've noted that the tab that aligns the flywheel has shattered.

The mating surfaces of both aren't terribly smooth, since some corrosion had occured between the axle and flywheel. Also, the nut hold the flywheel on has proven itsself to hold to date.. I'm thinking of applying some red loctite as an extra insurance to keep the flywheel from shifting in the even of a hard stall or lousy shift. I just want to get the bike turning over again so I can continue my work on assessing what needs to be worked on.. I have no intention of riding around with a glued-on flywheel. :p

(if anything, just for your help, I'll buy a bottle of the blue for the rest of the bike... and a bottle of the red to put on my ice cream.)
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Old 05-21-2008, 04:45 PM   #107
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Great question.

What we have here is an attempted deviation of one of Newton's laws....object at rest tends to stay at rest....

I'd bet a dollar there was indeed a key in place to hold the flywheel (which contains the magnets) in the correct position in relation to the crank so that when the magnetic field is created the spark plug and points do their thing at just the right time to produce miles of smiles.

In industrial applications I see this all of the time. Engines have the same forces at work. Keyways wallowing out from looseness aka backlash. Everytime the spark fires the crank accellerates but the flywheel wants to remain at it's own pace. Before long keyway wallowing happens. Electric motors in industrial facilities have these same problems-and the funny thing is that these keyway wallowing problems tend to only happen on equipment that sees a high frequency of startups and shutdowns each day.

Now to the problem at hand....

The pitting you describe is known in the world of ball bearings as fretting, and this is a mode of failure-failure because there's not alot of surface area in contact with the mating surface-this is not a strong assembly. Do not despair.

Locate the groove where the key sits on the crank and on the ID of the flywheel and gently tap out the sheared key.

Buy a new key.....should be had for less than a 5'er.

Degrease the mating surfaces and clean with some steel wool. Degrease again.

Dab some 660 Quick Metal into the key slot on the crank, tap the key into position. Dab a bit more 660 around the mating surface where the tapered ID of the flywheel rests on the crank.

Carefully slip the flywheel home making sure not to dislodge the key.

Tighten her up and let sit overnight.

Now you have a much more reliable assy. than the bike had from the factory.

.yada yada, usual disclaimer......Holiday Inn Express....

Dirty
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:07 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_sanchez
.yada yada, usual disclaimer......Holiday Inn Express....

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Old 07-09-2008, 05:50 PM   #109
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Is Dirty Sanchez still around?

Hey are Loctite and Permatex the same company?






Just kidding!

My question is, how long do I need to let my threadlocker "cure" on an internal engine part before adding oil to the engine. I believe it says that it cures fully in 24 hours- should I wait 24 hours before dumping the oil in?
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Old 07-09-2008, 06:28 PM   #110
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I see you Prairie Doggin'

Good question- I'd give it at least overnight to do it's business before you oil up the engine.

It's not that the oil impedes the cure, the tiny shifting, micro-movements are more prone to shear the material sandwiched between the mated parts, and that's not a good thing.

The book says 24 hours for a full cure, but the cure curve shows that at the 16 to 18 hour mark, it's done most of it's work.

I vote two times for letting it sit undisturbed, jostled, or molested for a day. Less if she'll let you blow in her tail pipe.

I'm still here, I just rather not pimp the thread I host. If there's a question posed, I'll answer it, otherwise I'll let it ride.

Dirty
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Old 07-09-2008, 07:04 PM   #111
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Thanks man!!! I'll leave it be 'till tomorrow night.
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Old 07-09-2008, 08:45 PM   #112
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Sooooooooooo . . . . .

The application I have in mind is an IMS Poly-somethingerother (plastic) gas tank (female threads), the male threads are the petcock - somesort of metal.

After rereading it looks like the 567PST would perhaps harm the plastic ? ? ?

Looks like I'll need some sort of teflon goo ?

Thanks for all the info provided Mr. Loctite.
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Old 07-10-2008, 03:00 AM   #113
dirty_sanchez
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If the male and female threads ARE some some sort of metal with the female insert molded in the tank, 567 would be a good choice- just remember to apply a thread-root-deep bead one to two threads back from the end of the fitting to avoid potential for contamination/360 degrees around the male threads 2 to 3 threads deep and button her up. 567 is low enough in strength, you'll still be able to remove the petcock.

You are indeed correct, anaerobic chemistries will haze over or stress crack many types of plastic faster than you can swing a dead cat by the tail, so be fair warned.

If the petcock threads into plastic threads in the tank which have stripped out, use a fuel resistant epoxy like the Fixmaster Fast Cure Mixing Cups (they come in a Pringles-type can, pn. 21425). So the male threads don't bond permenantly, spray on a thin coating of non-stick egg frying Pam type product to serve as the release agent, then with a small thin bristle disposable paint brush, work the Pam into the thread roots and everything else you don't want the epoxy to stick to. Then mix up one of the cups, dab some resin into the hole, work it around with a pipe cleaner, apply the rest to the male threads, and screw it in. Let it sit for about 3 to 4 minutes and give it a little 1/8" twist to break any sort of bond the Pam coating allowed to happen, do it again about 6 minutes into the process, then let it sit for a few hours, and you should be good to go.

A flashlight and a long screw driver should be used to break off any squeezeout that made it's way into the tank.

And now for the usual disclaimer, I am ADVriders very own unofficial official Loctite factory rep., at 5A on a Thursday who has officially completed his 2nd cup of coffee and now must excuse himself.

Dirty
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dirty_sanchez screwed with this post 07-10-2008 at 03:05 AM
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Old 07-10-2008, 04:17 AM   #114
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Glad I saw this thread - loctite is some wonderful stuff when used properly for sure. There is however a little known product that I discovered a few years ago that I have sworn by ever since - Vibra Tite. In high vibration applications it holds better than red loctite but you don't need a bible and a blow torch to get it back off!

Dirty, if you have never seen Vibra Tite you need to check this stuff out, I think you will like it. One thing that I like is the application, it's actually an encapsulant - you paint it on and let it dry before assembly. Actually it can be put on a fastener and laid on a shelf for weeks or months before re assembly.
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Old 11-28-2008, 09:12 PM   #115
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Sorry if this is covered, but I'm about to install a timesert in a Honda CB750 Spark plug hole. I ordered the inserts and the sealer (Loctite 266) from a supplier in SoCal. I was about to do the job, when I decided to look at the expiration date. Hmmmm, about 23 months past the 'use by' date. Since I don't trust chemicals that are significantly out of date, I might as well take the time to ask the expert if 266 is the best loctite product for installing a threaded insert in a spark plug hole.
TIA
Jim
PS too bad you can't search for strings of fewer than 4 characters!
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Old 11-29-2008, 06:16 AM   #116
dirty_sanchez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grider Pirate
Sorry if this is covered, but I'm about to install a timesert in a Honda CB750 Spark plug hole. I ordered the inserts and the sealer (Loctite 266) from a supplier in SoCal. I was about to do the job, when I decided to look at the expiration date. Hmmmm, about 23 months past the 'use by' date. Since I don't trust chemicals that are significantly out of date, I might as well take the time to ask the expert if 266 is the best loctite product for installing a threaded insert in a spark plug hole.
TIA
Jim
PS too bad you can't search for strings of fewer than 4 characters!
As your spiritual advisor and occasional purveyor of somewhat useless drivel, I would return that outdated product for a prompt and full refund.

If you care to share the string of characters imprinted at the bottom of the tube I'll confirm for you the "good through" date.

266 is not the product I suggest for this application having a max temperature of just 450F. Although I have never measured the over-temp temperature around the spark plug head temperature of a motorcycle engine, but I suspect the temperatures can reach well above 450F. And for this reason I don't suggest using 266 either within it's shelf life.

The newest range of high temp threadlockers we have developed have been commercialized here in the US this year and are suitable for temperatures up to 650F. We have them in red high strength permenant as well as blue medium strength removable.

I've never read the instal instructions for these timesert, but I suggest you coat the threads and cutting flutes on the tap with grease to catch any shavings from the head if you intend to make this repair while the head is still mounted on the bike. Slowly and deliberately run the tap into the buggered spark plug hole. Cut a turn of threads and remove the tap to clean off all shavings, recoat with grease and repeat until the new threads are cut.

Once the new threads have been cut, degrease the freshly cut threads with a fast/residue free cleaner/degreaser like Electrical Contact Cleaner. Clean and degrease the entire Timsert, let dry. Apply enough 2620 Red High Temp Threadlocker to the male threads of the Timsert, fill all thread-roots 360 degrees, starting one to two threads back from the end of the Timsert to the top of the area of threaded engagement.

2620 is a not a liquid (like we grew up using) or like the newer glue stick-like QuickStix, but 2620 is a rather thick paste-like material dispensed from a 30ml syringe. To ensure the thread roots are adequately filled, run a clean fingertip across the male threads to push the material home if you're the "I Can't leave well enough alone" type of hack like me.

pn. 1138282 2620 Red High Temp High Strength Permenant T/L
pn. 1134601 2422 Blue High Temp Medium Strength Removable T/L

As ADvRider's very own unofficial official Loctite factor rep. I must add my usual disclaimer: The Shamwow is guaranteed for life and it's made by the Germans and Germans make good stuff, and I'll double the order if you buy today.

Dirty
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Old 11-29-2008, 08:55 AM   #117
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Seeing As You Are Here....

This might have been covered in an earlier thread, but I'll ask the question again. I'm getting ready to re-install my clutch adapter/flywheel to the end of my crankshaft ('94 BMW R100GS) after changing out my crankshaft rear seal. The book calls for 'oiling the bolt threads - 14mm bolts - and torquing to 90 ft/lbs. Another very talented member of this forum has recommended using locktite instead - seems he had the bad misfortune of having his crankshaft bolts fail after 75,000 miles. For some reason these bolts worked loose, sheared and destroyed his crank. My question to you is - how does locktite affect bolt torque values, if substituted as in this case? What locktite would you recommend to use in this situation? Thank for doing all this. Jackd
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Old 11-29-2008, 09:25 AM   #118
dirty_sanchez
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The #1 cause for mechanical failures are from vibrational loosening. The #2 cause for mechanical failures is loosening from thermal expansion and contraction. These mechanical failure modes are very easy to control and address if we understand how easy it is to control just one variable- the thread root gap.

Threadlockers fill and support the airspace found between threaded assy's. By filling this airspace, the only ingredient we have control over, we've addressed a multitude of potential problems like un-planned fastener loosening, galvanic corrosion and rustlock.

The 14mm bolt you mentioned, does 14mm refer to the socket size or the diameter of the male threaded part?

If this 14mm figure refers to the socket size, I'd use a blue threadlocker (it's still removable using only hand tools). Just make sure to clean the male and female threads, and if the female threads are in a blind hole, please let me know so I can share the correct method for application of the threadlocker....yes, Buhler, there really is a right way to apply threadlockers in a blind hole.

As to the manual calling for a 90ft/lb torque spec on oiled fasteners, they call for oil on the threads to help overcome friction from threaded engagement and under bolt head friction which accounts to roughly 70 to 80% of the torque reading. Clamp load is all they're after when a torque spec is called out, but most of us can't accurately measue clamp load but can measure twisting force better known as torque values.

So, your question- How will using a threadlocker as opposed to oiled fasteners affect the torque spec.? Threadlockers have very near the same K-value (degree of lubricity) as oiled fasteners. So, 90ft/lbs, short of dealing with the Space Shuttle, is a wash wether dealing with oiled or threadlocker'ed surfaces.

Torque= K*F*D
K=Torque coefficient or nut factor
F=Clamp Load
D=Nominal diameter of the threaded fastener

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Old 11-29-2008, 09:50 AM   #119
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Slight Error.

I gave you the wrong size for the bolts - they're actually M11 x 1.5 bolts (qty 5). Very astute of you to know that they go into blind holes because I didn't indicate this. So what is the technique for application in blind holes? Sparingly with a Q-tip to prevent hydro-locking?

Being an aircraft mechanic, I'm aware that most of the friction is caused by the area under the fastener head. We are told to factor this in (friction drag torque) but from practice, very few people do it. Unless they are working on internal engine components, that is. So I take it that 90 ft/lbs is a good figure to work with be it oiled or locktited threads? Jackd
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Old 11-29-2008, 02:16 PM   #120
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When dealing with blind holes the stick version won't work correctly- use the liquid versions.

Now for the actual product application, over the years I've seen many folks ruin housings of blind holes due to improper application.

For those that don't know, a blind hole is one that has a bottom. And no, I'm not talking about Dirty Denise although she had lots of needs.

By applying a liquid threadlocker to the bolt, then screwing it into the hole, the air trapped in the hole pushes the threadlocker out as the bolt is tightened. This application method is not the correct application method since most all of the adhesive is forced out by the trapped air as the bolt moves into the airspace. Assembly by air tools when the threadlocker is applied to the male threads is a sure-fire way to blow out the back of the hole thereby ruining the housing.

The correct way to use threadlocker in a blind hole is not to use air tools for re-assy. Dribble threadlocker down the length of the threaded engagement area on the female threads in several places, then apply a bit less material to the male threads in several places. Then slowly tighten the bolt. Trapped air still pushes some of the material out, but enough threadlocker remains to completely fill the airgap between the male and female thread roots eliminating unplanned loosening.

This thread has been on an extended hiatus for some time, so if anyone else has any questions relating to threadlocking, threadsealing, gasketing, stopping keyways from wallowing a shaft, mounting bearings, RTV's, bonding, or enriching uranium for the small-scale hobbiest, lay 'em on me.

Dirty
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