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Old 07-13-2010, 09:27 AM   #61
Cowboy
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This thread gives me discomforting mixed feelings. On the one hand, the abandoned places are fascinating to me too. I love the eerie presence you can feel at these old places that were once the scene of so much investment and activity.

On the other hand, my sense of private property is offended. It is obvious a landowner is making an effort to keep people out by welding doors shut, and yet visitors continue to trespass, tearing down siding to get into the buildings when they can't get in through the doors.

I guess I have to recognize that willingness to trespass is a cultural difference. I grew up in an area where private property is something of a religion, and children are taught an almost ridiculous reverence for private property. I feel slightly dirty just looking at the pictures where someone else has done the actual trespassing.

It makes me curious what it feels like for someone with a different upbringing. I just can't imagine climbing through a hole in the siding, because a door is welded shut, and then posting photographs online: the very evidence the landowner would need to convict me of trespassing if he had a mind.

Does this sort of thing even enter other peoples' minds?
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Old 07-13-2010, 09:56 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboy
This thread gives me discomforting mixed feelings. On the one hand, the abandoned places are fascinating to me too. I love the eerie presence you can feel at these old places that were once the scene of so much investment and activity.

On the other hand, my sense of private property is offended. It is obvious a landowner is making an effort to keep people out by welding doors shut, and yet visitors continue to trespass, tearing down siding to get into the buildings when they can't get in through the doors.

I guess I have to recognize that willingness to trespass is a cultural difference. I grew up in an area where private property is something of a religion, and children are taught an almost ridiculous reverence for private property. I feel slightly dirty just looking at the pictures where someone else has done the actual trespassing.

It makes me curious what it feels like for someone with a different upbringing. I just can't imagine climbing through a hole in the siding, because a door is welded shut, and then posting photographs online: the very evidence the landowner would need to convict me of trespassing if he had a mind.

Does this sort of thing even enter other peoples' minds?
Well, sort of. What enters my mind is how the law used to (and still does in some jurisdictions) encourage people "trespassing" onto abandoned property through the doctrine of adverse possession. The idea was that if property was abandoned and someone came onto the land, took it over for a period of times and made improvements or efforts to make it his (like fencing it), that person could gain title to the property through the doctrine of adverse possession. The underlying principle was, of course, was that land is far too important to abandon, and that if you let someone comes in and squats and you don't kick them out, tough luck--better the land be used. Obviously that's not what's going on here, but it's what I think of when I see abandoned property.
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Old 07-13-2010, 10:30 AM   #63
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I think thats part of the "thrill". Being where you aren't supposed to be. My feeling is that while it is "wrong" , if you don't damage anything and just look, and are also willing to pay whatever penalty if caught, the black mark isn't very black.
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Old 07-13-2010, 10:31 AM   #64
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Also, the mere fact of ownership should not preclude access that was
established eons before the Pinta Maria or the Mayflower. Especially
if it's an "absentee landowner". I think most "no trespassing" signs are
simply a way to avoid the "personal injury lawsuits".

Bring on more of your abandoned places and images, please.
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:50 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVic
Well, sort of. What enters my mind is how the law used to (and still does in some jurisdictions) encourage people "trespassing" onto abandoned property through the doctrine of adverse possession. The idea was that if property was abandoned and someone came onto the land, took it over for a period of times and made improvements or efforts to make it his (like fencing it), that person could gain title to the property through the doctrine of adverse possession. The underlying principle was, of course, was that land is far too important to abandon, and that if you let someone comes in and squats and you don't kick them out, tough luck--better the land be used. Obviously that's not what's going on here, but it's what I think of when I see abandoned property.
I live in one of the jurisdictions where adverse possession is recognized, but it doesn't work quite the way you described. In order to win an adverse possession case, you have to prove:
1. open and notorious possession
2. under color of title
3. for the statutory period

It's that second element that you're omitting. Adverse possession does not actually encourage a pure squatter or trespasser to take up residence and then claim ownership of an abandoned property. The requirement of "color of title" means that an adverse possessor needs to prove in court that he believed, and had a reason to believe, that he actually owned the property when he first possessed it. I can't just walk onto your property and take up residence, and become the owner through adverse possession. I have to have a deed or a contract or some means to back up my claim that I had a right to occupy the property. Trespassing just doesn't get you across that line.

The more typical adverse possession case is a property boundary dispute, where one land owner bought a parcel, fenced it and grazed his cattle, then found out years later that the fence was in the wrong place, and enclosed some of the neighbor's land. He sues his neighbor to quiet title to the land inside his fence, under an adverse possession theory. That case is winnable, at least in Wyoming. If instead he walked out onto the prairie, built a fence and started grazing cattle, without any valid reason to claim the land, he would lose every time.
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:55 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galland1
I think thats part of the "thrill". Being where you aren't supposed to be. My feeling is that while it is "wrong" , if you don't damage anything and just look, and are also willing to pay whatever penalty if caught, the black mark isn't very black.
Good point. In a civil suit for trespassing, the landowner wouldn't be able to claim much in the way of damages, given your scenario.

Likely, you would only face a fine for criminal trespassing, and a prosecutor would be reluctant to file charges unless you actually damaged something.

One thing to think about is the possibility that in either scenario, you might be blamed for damages done by some prior trespasser. If you crawl through the hole where someone else tore down the siding, the landowner and/or prosecutor may well assume you were the one who tore down the siding.
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:03 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboy
On the other hand, my sense of private property is offended. It is obvious a landowner is making an effort to keep people out by welding doors shut, and yet visitors continue to trespass, tearing down siding to get into the buildings when they can't get in through the doors.

I'll respond, since I started this thread -- but obviously I'm speaking only for myself.

I would not trespass on a private individual's land without permission if it was posted. However, the abandoned radar base has not been in the hands of a private individual for something like a decade now. Since then it's been owned by energy companies interested in setting up a windfarm there (and if they get permission, they'll likely tear down all the structures). Because it's a historic site that's in imminent danger of destruction (by the forces of nature if not by the construction of a windfarm), and because it's owned by a corporation whose only interest is exploiting the location for an unrelated use, I have no compunctions about going there to document it. And in this particular case, it's a bit of a nonissue as I don't recall seeing a single "no trespassing" sign. The locals use that area for recreation. There's no fence preventing people from entering on foot or bicycle.

As for entering the structures, there's nothing of any value in any of them. The only reason to keep people out is liability. Many of the buildings are wide open with no effort made to keep people out. I would not tear away siding to enter a building, but if it's already torn away, I don't have a problem making use of the hole.

That said, I think East Coast concepts of private property are probably also different from out west. The population density here is too high. People tend not to have as much property, and it's not at all uncommon for that property to be crossed by a public right of way. When I was a kid growing up in the suburbs of Washington, DC, we regularly played in areas that were presumably someone's property, but no one cared. So you're probably right about it being partially a cultural thing.

--mark
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:51 PM   #68
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The act of someone entering "private" property doesn't bother me, but I hate when people post pics of a ghost town, abandoned site, etc. where it is obvious that other people (probably bored teens) have gone in with no other purpose but to destroy history.
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Old 07-14-2010, 09:02 AM   #69
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Nice pics Mark...

Really enjoy looking at this old stuff. Reminds me of UR's RR here. Looks like his pics are gone, though.

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Old 02-09-2011, 02:09 AM   #70
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norad pinetree line

If someday you want to explore another pinetree line norad station there another one at Mont radar St-Sylvestre P.Q. . But not so abandoned than the one in VT
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Old 02-09-2011, 04:00 AM   #71
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That site would make a great movie set!!!!
I can't but notice markbvt that in one of the photos from your first post is a Wind Generator and some Solar Panels ontop of on of the radar towers. Does someone live there of was I just trippin out?
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Old 02-09-2011, 06:44 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by dunno_where View Post
I can't but notice markbvt that in one of the photos from your first post is a Wind Generator and some Solar Panels ontop of on of the radar towers. Does someone live there of was I just trippin out?
No, for some years now the site has been owned by an energy company looking to set up a wind farm there. I'm not sure what the small windmill and the solar panels powered. But on my second visit to the site, the windmill had fallen off the roof of the radar tower and was lying smashed on the ground -- the metal mount had fatigued and broken. Given the small size of the windmill, I think it may actually have been more of a research instrument to measure the wind up there; the solar panel may have been to power a transmitter.

I haven't been up there in nearly three years now, so I have no idea what's changed since I posted the last set of pics in 2008.

--mark
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Old 02-10-2011, 03:09 AM   #73
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Makes sense. Cheers for the reply.
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Old 04-30-2011, 04:37 AM   #74
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Love abandoned places and ghost towns!

Nice RR and pics.
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Old 04-30-2011, 05:03 AM   #75
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very cool thread! thanks for sharing the pics, gonna make me go out and find stuff now!!!!
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