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Old 07-29-2010, 10:02 AM   #2386
Erik RS
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Haven't got a clue Richard. Acquaintance of mine (from the Dutch GS-club) rented it for this run. First time I saw the beast in real life. These pictures were taken the 29th of May this year.

I said: "friendly to move about", since the guy's only sidecar experience is a day's training (I think at Rob Treffers') and he found it easy to drive

There wasn't time and opportunity for me to check it out alas.

Some more pics of sidecars on that specific run for the handicapped. It's a shame there were so few of us sidecarists











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Old 07-30-2010, 06:03 AM   #2387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard-NL

BTW, ever seen the price of a stock Hedingham ETH sidecar?
Is that like a trick question or a dig ?
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Old 07-30-2010, 06:42 AM   #2388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chairhead
Is that like a trick question or a dig ?
Rhetorical question.....

Richard-NL
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Old 07-30-2010, 09:51 AM   #2389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard-NL
Rhetorical question.....

Richard-NL
Taken from wikipedia
"Often a rhetorical question is intended as a challenge, with the implication that the question is difficult or impossible to answer"

bit further down the page
Sometimes the implied answer to a rhetorical question is "Yes, but I wish it were not so" or vice versa

That quote is so true in my case




I heard on the grapevine these two might split

So it was true!!
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Old 07-30-2010, 12:22 PM   #2390
claude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard-NL
I’m not kidding you:

Check here

The seller is not a sidecar manufacturer, just a Triumph dealer, who sells for a ridiculous price.

Germany, Holland, UK, Australia all agree. This is too expensive. USA didn’t respond, but what do they know. (don’t forget the smiley right here, oops).

But let us get rational:

A standard Scrambler in Germany cost euro 8,990.—excluding options and delivery costs.
A standard Scrambler in Holland costs euro 10,290.— excluding options and delivery costs.

Now I wanna hear somebody complaint about the tax rates in their country………………

The Triumph dealer talks about a 1,000 euro option of Wilbers shocks included. Price is correct. For me they would cost me 980 Euro, directly buying from Wilbers without postage.

The Triumph dealer has put some other options on the bike which are a total of 1.400 euro, of which the Arrow exhaust is 1,039, the fly screen is 171, and the polstering of the steering is a 20. Couldn’t see anything else. A total of 1,230 Triumph parts, when I had to buy them, but maybe I missed something and mounting is not included…….

Let’s thinks he had 510 euro transportation costs, fuel, oil, uncrating, license plates, whatever.

This makes the price for the sidecar (in Germany), without all options on the bike incl. the shocks, but including subframe design and fabrication incl. powder coated frame and design struts, clamps etc. (and no stinking Velorex clamps) and a disk brake connected to the rear brake, incl. mounting euro: 11,000 euro. You may transfer this into your own currency yourself, thank you. This triples the price of the stock sidecar.

Is this too much? Yes. This Triumph dealer should think about why he’s not selling.

Ridiculous.

And it should have a LL, 15” black powder coated wheels, like I said before.


Richard-NL


BTW, ever seen the price of a stock Hedingham ETH sidecar?
Am I seeing over 14,0000 USD for the sidecar? Right? Wrong? Anyone interested in a similar one....lets deal...Whew.
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Old 07-30-2010, 12:28 PM   #2391
Erik RS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claude
... over 14,0000 USD ...
You're overdoing it on your zero's I think Claude.

B.o.t.?
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Old 07-31-2010, 02:47 AM   #2392
Agent Wayward
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard-NL
You asked for it. You didn’t get it, did you?

I can buy this sidecar brand new for 3,990 euro which is 3,325 GBP. (exchange rates change every hour, I used google). Pretty the same price like yours I think, don’t you? See the difference.




Furthermore you fit for 500 GBP minimum, powder coating is an extra, brake is an extra, needs proper wiring etc etc. You use Velorex struts and clamps. 3 hour job, max.

What´s worrying me more. You build your sidecars to heavy +100HP Yamaha´s and Kawa´s and don´t use custom made subframes, but say you can fit it and set it up for no matter what bike. You use Velorex struts and clamps.

A big NONO. Doing this, you seem to have no knowledge and no experience at all.

How many have you sold yet? 2? 3?

A fresh new look gives you credit, although it will not work in practice. More important, a new look doesn’t make a good sidecar.

Please provide (any) proof that you have any idea of what you are doing and I’m just seeing this wrong.

Richard-NL
Blimey! What did I do to deserve this?!!!

OK, so lets look at your comments:

Powder coating is extra: Not true. The frame and all fittings etc are black powder coated as standard. Chrome powder coat is extra as it costs more. It's an option to provide more choice.

Brake is an extra as it's a light chair and most people won't need one and some don't want one.

Proper wiring is included, obviously. Where you got that from I have no idea.

I do use custom made subframes. I have them on my demo, the Yamaha you are talking about I assume. We always design and build the fittings and subframes taking into account the individual bike. My demo has done over 10k miles with the sidecar attached and has had no problems with the fitting whatsoever. Again, where you get your ideas that I just clamp them up with the velorex clamps is beyond me. How I would have fitted the sidecar to various aluminium beam framed bikes, with Velorex frame clamps, I have no idea!

I do know what I am doing. We say we can fit any bike, which we can and do. Recently a Vincent, a ZZR600 and a Honda DN-01. How diverse can you get? All of these used totally different fitting arrangements and all were very successful, in the case of the ZZR600, very innovative.
I've been to plenty of shows in the UK and wherever I've been, the UK Sidecar clubs and the Fed people have praised my design and execution.

How many I have sold is my business, of course. Way, way more than 2 or 3 though!!! This is my only business, I'm doing very well thank you, otherwise I'd be doing something else!

My sidecar is a fresh new look, you're right there. And it's a good sidecar. Just because it might not fit your needs, doesn't make it any less.

The sidecar you show in the photo as a comparison is all well and good, but it's presumably not available as a UK sided chair? So pretty irrelevent for me. It looks fine, but I don't see any major advantage over mine, unless you'd care to expand? OK, it has a hood for the passenger, but mine has a lockable hard canopy which that one does not have. Different to mine, certainly, but better? Depends what you want surely?

But mostly, I'm making a new sidecar in the UK, at a low price compared to most others on the market, which is well engineered and built to a very high quality. Something nobody else is that bothered with. Why is it that you feel I deserve such criticism?

My price is fair for the UK market and reflects the fact that it is built in the UK using quality components and suppliers. Yes, I could produce one for less, if I sold out and had the frames made in China, used cheap quality components etc. I will NOT do this.

I am genuinely surprised by you comments, most of which are unfounded and unfair.

I am prepared to take criticism if it's constructive, I listen to my customers and if they want something different, I will do my utmost to provide it. What I don't like is unfounded criticism which has come from a lack of understanding.

If I'm not welcome on this forum, so be it, I will not post any further.
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Agent Wayward screwed with this post 07-31-2010 at 03:13 AM
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Old 07-31-2010, 02:54 AM   #2393
Agent Wayward
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidecarjohn
A price that is still unlikely to attract too many for a very basic sidecar. The question is, would it sell more if it was £2250 ?
I don't seem to be having a problem attracting customers.

Look at what else is available on the UK market at this price level.

I could make them for £2250, as I replied to Richard, using cheap components and outsourcing abroad. I do not want to do this. I make a British product.

Would they sell more? Doubtful to be honest. My customers have been happy to buy my sidecar as it is what they wanted and something that is not offered elsewhere. The price, in most cases, is secondary.
Yes, I agree, if my sidecar was way over-priced, but in all fairness, it isn't.
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Old 07-31-2010, 03:33 AM   #2394
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Sidecars UK

There are two things going for Agent Wayward. Importantly, it appears there is some active marketing going on, something that cannot be said for the two established UK manufacturers. Associated with this is turning up at bike events where there will always be some interest. This pattern is part and parcel of what can be recalled over the last few decades, as others have attempted to profit from sidecar manufacture.

Back in the 1970s Squire showed how it should be done by providing sidecars for display in bike dealerships. They did very well and also became a big exporter. However, what they provided was a flexible formula. A sidecar that could carry a passenger in reasonable comfort, plus luggage. It wasn't everybody's choice, especially existing sidecarists, but it did help to expand the numbers on the road. In the greater scheme of things the price was also right for the time.

Others tried to capitalise on the renewed interest in sidecars, but most failed after periods of initial enthusiasm, and some sales, usually to friends and acquaintances. Perhaps only Gemini can be remembered as surviving for a few years, and only then because Fred Yates produced several versions of his coachbuilt sidecars.

To the point. The quality of product and parts used by Agent Wayward is subjective, especially when using the tag British because sadly it doesn't follow that people see that as a positive these days.

Equally, claims of supportive statements from UK sidecar clubs and Fed people are all very well, but would they actually buy one, or see it as fitting their needs ? Are they just being polite ?

The measure of any "new" sidecar is ultimately longevity. Will those who have invested still be happy with their acquisition after the honeymoon period ? Will their introduction to sidecars bring them in contact with models that are more attractive and make them question their initial purchase ? Will anybody be interested in buying their second hand pannier on a wheel ?

Finally, "what have I done to deserve this ?". You've come onto possibly the world's premier sidecar forum, and over a period of time attempted to promote your product. Perhaps that was a bad move. Generally, this forum is about ownership issues, knowledge, and opinions based upon experience. Maybe Agent Wayward needs to take stock.
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Old 08-01-2010, 03:14 AM   #2395
Agent Wayward
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidecarjohn
There are two things going for Agent Wayward. Importantly, it appears there is some active marketing going on, something that cannot be said for the two established UK manufacturers. Associated with this is turning up at bike events where there will always be some interest. This pattern is part and parcel of what can be recalled over the last few decades, as others have attempted to profit from sidecar manufacture.

Back in the 1970s Squire showed how it should be done by providing sidecars for display in bike dealerships. They did very well and also became a big exporter. However, what they provided was a flexible formula. A sidecar that could carry a passenger in reasonable comfort, plus luggage. It wasn't everybody's choice, especially existing sidecarists, but it did help to expand the numbers on the road. In the greater scheme of things the price was also right for the time.

Others tried to capitalise on the renewed interest in sidecars, but most failed after periods of initial enthusiasm, and some sales, usually to friends and acquaintances. Perhaps only Gemini can be remembered as surviving for a few years, and only then because Fred Yates produced several versions of his coachbuilt sidecars.

To the point. The quality of product and parts used by Agent Wayward is subjective, especially when using the tag British because sadly it doesn't follow that people see that as a positive these days.

Equally, claims of supportive statements from UK sidecar clubs and Fed people are all very well, but would they actually buy one, or see it as fitting their needs ? Are they just being polite ?

The measure of any "new" sidecar is ultimately longevity. Will those who have invested still be happy with their acquisition after the honeymoon period ? Will their introduction to sidecars bring them in contact with models that are more attractive and make them question their initial purchase ? Will anybody be interested in buying their second hand pannier on a wheel ?

Finally, "what have I done to deserve this ?". You've come onto possibly the world's premier sidecar forum, and over a period of time attempted to promote your product. Perhaps that was a bad move. Generally, this forum is about ownership issues, knowledge, and opinions based upon experience. Maybe Agent Wayward needs to take stock.
Thanks for your comments, much appreciated.

I don't believe that the quality of my product can be seen as subjective. It is what it is, well made using top quality engineering, finishes and components. I'm proud of the British tag and it was something that I wanted to do from the start. It's sad that the British tag doesn't carry the image that it used to, but that's no reason not to try. I have the utmost confidence in our quality and will not cut corners for profit or convenience.

I think your "pannier with a wheel" comment is a little unfair, I presume you've never ridden in one? I recently took a passenger on a 1500 mile tour to Scotland. No comfort issues. It is what it is, not the world's largest sidecar, but perfectly capable of carrying a good amount of luggage or a passenger.
In time I will be producing a larger version and various other models to suit everybody.

It may be that people from sidecar clubs etc have just been kind, and it may also be that my sidecar does not suit there needs. However, the customers that I have are happy with their purchases and I continue to sell well, so I must assume that I am producing something that people want. I've yet to sell one to a friend or acquaintance!

As I said, if my presence on here as a manufacturer is not welcome, I will gladly desist, although this is a free forum and so far as I am aware, I am at liberty to post what I want so long as it is not unpleasant. There are others that do not abide by this rule quite so well. I don't think that I have been overtly commercial with my promotion on here. I genuinely thought that people would be interested.
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Old 08-01-2010, 05:34 AM   #2396
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Positives and Negatives

A lengthy tour in your sidecar does not imply comfort. I know folk who can sleep on a plank.
Hopefully, some things positive will come out of the dialogue you have shared with others. Look forward to seeing how things work out as your business develops, and various other models appear.
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Old 08-01-2010, 09:06 AM   #2397
Agent Wayward
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidecarjohn
A lengthy tour in your sidecar does not imply comfort. I know folk who can sleep on a plank.
Hopefully, some things positive will come out of the dialogue you have shared with others. Look forward to seeing how things work out as your business develops, and various other models appear.
My passenger was not accustomed to riding in such a manner and would be the first person to complain about any discomfort! I can assure you that it is comfortable to ride in over extended periods of time.

Furthermore, I invite you and anybody else to come and see my sidecar at one of the shows I am attending to check out the quality, comfort and any other aspects of my design. Will you be at Popham by any chance? Look forward to meeting you at some point.

I am always open to suggestions for improvement from people who are interested in sidecars, whoever they may be.

I'm sure that this discussion will ultimately prove to be positive, once again thanks for your comments so far.
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Old 08-01-2010, 09:49 AM   #2398
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C'mon guys!!!,
This is "Sidecars,let's see em!!"
and although the last 8 posts including this one are very interesting and have made me chuckle there is a distinct lack of F#*!=n pictures
lets get back to it fella's
Ta!
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Old 08-01-2010, 09:56 AM   #2399
Agent Wayward
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chairhead
C'mon guys!!!,
This is "Sidecars,let's see em!!"
and although the last 8 posts including this one are very interesting and have made me chuckle there is a distinct lack of F#*!=n pictures
lets get back to it fella's
Ta!

Good point, well made Sir!

This was taken on the famous pass of the cattle road, over to Applecross, west coast of Scotland, a few weeks ago.

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Old 08-01-2010, 01:20 PM   #2400
jings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent Wayward
Good point, well made Sir!

This was taken on the famous pass of the cattle road, over to Applecross, west coast of Scotland, a few weeks ago.

that sure is a nice looking sidecar and a great photo .ive been thinking about getting a sidecar for a while now but cant afford £3500 btw to me the made in britain badge would swing the deal
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