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Old 10-27-2010, 07:48 AM   #331
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There really arent any other circlips that bear rotational movement?

Not even our beloved transmission circlip?





I'm trying to find examples of circlips that would have some rotation associated with them. Ok, they mostly bear thrust, but still, the amount of angular dimension these circlips in the driveshaft will take is on the order of low single digit degrees, if that, right? How much will the cush crush? Did you get to feel the little tampons? how soft are they?
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Old 10-27-2010, 08:07 AM   #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagehand
There really arent any other circlips that bear rotational movement?

Not even our beloved transmission circlip?





I'm trying to find examples of circlips that would have some rotation associated with them. Ok, they mostly bear thrust, but still, the amount of angular dimension these circlips in the driveshaft will take is on the order of low single digit degrees, if that, right? How much will the cush crush? Did you get to feel the little tampons? how soft are they?
Thanks Stage. I thought about the trans circlip, but it's running in a constant oil bath and it's just locating the bearing's inner race. It's not actually seeing much axial motion. Is it?

I'd imagine the dampened shafts move through at least 10 or 15 degrees, or they wouldn't be doing too much damping?



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Old 10-27-2010, 08:11 AM   #333
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JackD and you have already touched on it, but I dont think the thought was completed:
Wouldnt it also depend on how much thrust they were bearing, simultaneously?
There would be a lot greater wear if the circlip were really holding it together, but if there is very little tension between the two (brought on by elastomer elongation?) might that also not mitigate the wear on the circlip area? Maybe there's just not that much tension to hold back that a circlip wouldnt be fine to withstand.

And of course we'd be talking about the circlip wearing out first, not the driveshaft material, I presume?
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Old 10-27-2010, 08:23 AM   #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagehand
JackD and you have already touched on it, but I dont think the thought was completed:
Wouldnt it also depend on how much thrust they were bearing, simultaneously?
There would be a lot greater wear if the circlip were really holding it together, but if there is very little tension between the two (brought on by elastomer elongation?) might that also not mitigate the wear on the circlip area? Maybe there's just not that much tension to hold back that a circlip wouldnt be fine to withstand.

And of course we'd be talking about the circlip wearing out first, not the driveshaft material, I presume?
I don't know? Circlips are made of pretty hard steel.

Not sure about loading numbers, but in an effort to release pressure on the circlip I was unable to compress the two halves of the shaft with my 210 lbs.



Disclaimer: This is a very highly finished and impressive looking product. I'm not trying to discredit it in any way. I'm simply expressing my curiosity. I'd love to hear that I'm wrong from someone with photographs of an example with several thousand miles on it

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Old 10-27-2010, 08:40 AM   #335
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What does the circlip go in behind? Is it a full circumference slot? I used to install 3" internal circlips on propellors that I used to build and there was always the note to place the "sharp" edge of the circlip facing outward to prevent it from dislodging but it never was an area in the propellor itself to inspect for damage. Personally, I would not be too concerned about this area of the shaft and I would be focusing on the ears at the u-joints during my re-inspects. As you say, your 210 lbs couldn't make it move and therefore me thinks the pretention might make the movement in this area minimal.
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Old 10-27-2010, 09:56 AM   #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackd
What does the circlip go in behind? Is it a full circumference slot? I used to install 3" internal circlips on propellors that I used to build and there was always the note to place the "sharp" edge of the circlip facing outward to prevent it from dislodging but it never was an area in the propellor itself to inspect for damage. Personally, I would not be too concerned about this area of the shaft and I would be focusing on the ears at the u-joints during my re-inspects. As you say, your 210 lbs couldn't make it move and therefore me thinks the pretention might make the movement in this area minimal.
Perhaps you're not clear on how this works?

The dampers are there to minimise shock loads in the drivetrain. ie: The two halves of the shaft don't move together - There is constant movement between the two halves as the dampers do their work.

That movement between the two halves of the shaft is born by the forward facing side of that circlip and the rearward facing side of the tuliped section of the rear half of the shaft.

Does that make it any clearer?



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Old 10-27-2010, 10:04 AM   #337
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No I get it. You are worried about how much fretting damage is going to happen between the circlip and the tulip face as power comes off and on. That top shot shows the circlip in situ - good shot. I wonder if the engineers took this into consideration or if any were involved.
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Old 10-27-2010, 10:34 PM   #338
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I am still a little unclear, Lornce. Forgive me if I am completely misunderstanding here.

The force of the movement between the two halves of the shaft does not appear that it would "bear" on the circlips. The setup is obviously to prevent "twisting" of a single piece rubber damper to prevent a shaft going out of phase. It looks basically like a cush hub. The length of the shaft, I would presume, would not allow for any significant shortening/lengthening of the shaft with movement. I suspect the final drive end of the shaft basically bears up against the flange of the FD splines when it's all installed together and that there would be extremely little movement along the long axis of the shaft.

Also as these little elastomers are multiple, any load on any single elastomer would automatically be spread out among all of them, no? Also, they _must_ not be so "squishy" that they would force themselves lengthwise out against the circlip'd area.

Awaiting enlightenment, as always!

dc
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Old 10-28-2010, 05:56 AM   #339
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I wonder if the engineers took this into consideration or if any were involved.
That's exactly the point.

Mr. Lee's a fine fellow and consumate enthusiast. But he's not an engineer.

For those of you still in the dark, the elastomer dampened shaft is designed to twist with every increase or decrease in applied torque/power (ie: It twists a lot). The elastomers and the webbing that secures them on both halves of the shaft looks to be well thought through.

Yes, it serves much the same function as a cush hub. I'm not concerned about the shaft lengthening or shortening (it doesn't do that).

I believe that large circlip and the rearward mating face of the tuliped section are going to be a problem as the miles add up. Those pieces are held together under a compression load and will be constantly twisting back and forth against each other.

That's not a good idea for parts not designed or suited to function as a bearing.

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Old 10-28-2010, 06:29 AM   #340
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I wonder what the retailers and/or manufacturers of this product have to say on that topic.
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Old 10-28-2010, 08:06 AM   #341
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I wonder what the retailers and/or manufacturers of this product have to say on that topic.
I had the same conversation with a retailer (a good friend). He's the guy who told me the mfg'r isn't really an engineer and might actually invite suggestions for improvement...

The beautiful thing about Taiwan is that you can walk out your front door with an idea in your head and within two or three blocks you can have a finished product in your hand.

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Old 01-13-2011, 02:12 AM   #342
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Hey Dad, is my sidecar ready yet?





Okay, that was a shameless ploy....

Is this kid cute, or what?!?


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Old 01-13-2011, 06:11 AM   #343
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Happy looking lad there Lornce, is he making BMW noises in the pic or just explaining final drive failure?
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Old 01-13-2011, 06:29 AM   #344
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Okay, that was a shameless ploy....

Is this kid cute, or what?!?


Very cute kid. What are you doing to strengthen his throttle hand?
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Old 01-13-2011, 10:36 AM   #345
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Happy looking lad there Lornce, is he making BMW noises in the pic or just explaining final drive failure?
As good airhead parents we've kept him away from all things oilhead. Our efforts are paying off.

So far he remains innocent of final drive failure and the trauma it brings to young psyches.


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