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Old 02-29-2008, 09:26 AM   #16
Sir Not Appearing
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I'm sure not every enlisted rider is a squid, but 99% of the guys around here that come home on leave are textbook squids. Well, except that they wear their boots instead of flipflops. If somehow they could try to keep them in proper gear, that might help. Those short haircuts can't provide much head protection.
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Old 02-29-2008, 09:50 AM   #17
chrisjohn
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How ironic the land of the free has so many inhabitants who are really against personal freedom.

More soldiers, Marines, airmen, seamen are killed via EtOH than anything else. Close the Class VI? Don’t think so. If the individual wants to destroy their mind, body, and bank account that’s their business. Along this same line, automobiles are more dangerous statistically, but payments are a great way to keep lower enlisted coming back for more; thus there is never any attempt to restrict ownership.

Yes, military members voluntarily give up MANY of their rights and certainly are bound to follow orders, I detect former 1Sgts in some of the previous posts, but it does not follow that such obedience should be abused, which banning motorcycle riding clearly is.

People must bare the consequences of their actions, it’s the only way we learn and grow. Some never do and that is okay. Aversion to accepting consequences is destroying America. How did we as a nation move from acknowledging the individual as being sentient and capable of positive and negative actions to infantilization and needing protection from himself? Sometimes stupid can not be fixed. Individuals will do stupid things and die, it’s our nature.
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Old 02-29-2008, 10:27 AM   #18
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military riders

about 90% of the people i help are on sport bikes and almost all of them are military and new riders. less than 3 months on a crotch rocket. fortunately all of the military riders ive been on had a full face helmet and at least a jacket on. doesnt always help but most of the time it does.

the san diego news said that penalton is requiring riders to go through some sort of motorcycle training. they implied that the class was more advanced than the basic how to drive a bike around a parking lot.

i'm not sure what the solution is. like my basic motorcycle class instructor said "you are all certified to ride a motorcycle around a parking lot, have fun and be safe". i dont see a class like that making these kids any more aware of the fact that they are not superman. good luck figuring it out. call penalton and see what they are doing.

dave
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Old 02-29-2008, 12:40 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRB
Okay I'm military and this is the first 1/2 way reasonable idea I've read yet. Taking away the right to ride motorcycles is not the answer. People would get in more trouble riding when they are not suppose to, myself included. I'm in Iraq right now and I cant wait to go riding again. Why would you take that away from us?

Motorcycles Too Dangerous? Have you been to Iraq lately?
The military personnel are trained to do their job in Iraq and they do it well. Most don't get nearly the quality or quantity of training it takes to be a competent and responsible motorcyclist...military AND civilians. War and motorcycling are both inherently dangerous things that can hurt you, but the two should not be in the same equation.
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Old 02-29-2008, 12:48 PM   #20
janliness
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I lived on/worked at military installations all my life, and have not been enlisted. I think it's good to have some rules, such as an MSF course and be required to wear some proper gear (helmet, boots, reflective) simply to have some idea of what's good behavior. Of course, this is sorta like most quandries with youngsters -- they may decide to not follow a good example! At some point it is the responsibility of the overseers to provide a good example.

I'll leave enforcement out of this!

That said, I've seen everything weird with enforcement. My current workplace is on a base where the speed limit is 25mph max and has two paved roads. I've had:
- stopped for *leaving* the base without my reflective vest
- stopped for admiring the bike
- stopped and not allowed entry because I was not carrying my MSF card (even though I have a CO motorcycle "M" on my license!)
- a buddy stopped for not wearing a reflective vest -- his jacket was at least 1/3 highly reflective tape/logos!

later,
jan
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Old 02-29-2008, 01:37 PM   #21
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Another interesting point - Tricare will not pay for motorcycle related injuries if the member hasn't taken the approved on-base course. (This from an Active Air Guard perspective).
I can also tell you that whenever an accident happens to an Active Duty Air Force member it must be reported through channels. Some of the (mandatory) verbage on the report is whether or not the member has taken the safety course.
I don't always agree with the military perspective on personnel management but you have to understand as an Active Duty member you are a military asset, and that's how you are thought of. I know it's all about taking care of our military families now and all that retoric. But the bottom line for the higher brass is the military member is a fighting unit, an asset, a number.

SMSgt, USAF, Retired.
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Old 02-29-2008, 01:41 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisjohn

I detect former 1Sgts in some of the previous posts,
.
Guilty as charged!
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Old 02-29-2008, 01:47 PM   #23
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Here's what Jason Pridmore did last year for military riders. Awesome, there should be more if it available:

OCTOBER 31 2007 JASON PRIDMORE’S STAR MOTORCYLE SCHOOL WOULD LIKE TO THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE BY OFFERING A FREE ONE DAY CLASS AT THE NATION’S TOP RATED RIDING SCHOOL AT WILLOW SPRINGS INT’L RACEWAY’S STREETS OF WILLOW

To the Marines and Sailors of Southern California:
Jason Pridmore and Joe Rocket are donating their time and money to say thanks for serving this great nation by offering a free one day class at Jason’s top rated riding school. Joe Rocket is donating leathers for the Marines and Sailors that do not have a set to use, with the option to purchase them at a discounted price.
Jason is very concerned about the number Marines and Sailors involved in and injured in motorcycle related ancients. In an effort curtail the number of accidents, he would like you to improve your riding skills in a safe and controlled environment buy joining him and his staff on October 31.

The Skills and Techniques for Advanced Riding Motorcycle School was created to help you become a more proficient and confident rider. Whether you're a street rider who wants to improve your skills to gain confidence and become a safer rider, or a track day junkie and racer looking for answers on how to go faster on the racetrack, the STAR Motorcycle School has a training program designed specifically for you.
Chief instructor Jason Pridmore is the 1997 AMA 750 Supersport Champion, 2002 AMA Formula Extreme Champion, and the 2003 FIM World Endurance Champion. He is also the only American to ever stand on the podium of a World Supersport race. JP retired after the 2006 season with 21 AMA National wins including 17 Superstock class wins, (second only to Scott Russell), and countless podiums.

STAR Motorcycle School's team of experienced professional motorcycle instructors include co-owner Mark Gallardo, 1998 AMA 750 Supersport Champion Richie Alexander, Jon Nichols, industry insider Bill Syfan, veteran moto-journalist Andrew Trevitt, and many others. Our instructors cover thousands of miles, working with hundreds of students a year. They win local, regional, National, and World Championships. They are motorcycle industry veterans with roles small and large; proprietors of multi-line dealerships, engineers of motorcycle performance parts, AMA Superbike Crew Chiefs and Team Managers. They have worked for the Big Four, and tested and developed tires for Dunlop. They are television commentators, and Motorcyclist, Sport Rider and Roadracing World editors and contributors. In short, they have more experience, and more invested in the sport of motorcycling, than all the others combined.Want to learn more about STAR? This ten minute video is a great place to start.

The entire STAR staff prides itself on being open, approachable, and focused on helping you gain the skills and confidence to accomplish your riding goals

STAR Motorcycle School will teach you skills in:
- Concentration, Relaxation, and Breathing
- Smoothness
- Visual Skills and Awareness
- Discipline
- Body Position
- Cornering Lines
- Steering Techniques
- Shifting Techniques
- Braking Techniques
- Reference Points
- Managing and Optimizing Traction
- Overcoming Panic
- Suspension and Chassis Basic
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Old 02-29-2008, 02:15 PM   #24
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Why not implement the following for EVERYBODY:

1) The registration of the street-ridden motorcycle cannot be completed unless the assigned buyer shows proof of completing his/her DMV test and basic MSF course.

2) Utilize the tiered licensing system of other countries

3) The buyer is entitled to a one-day trackday class that is included with the purchase of a motorcycle. This would be a win-win for everybody; the riders for safety and longesvity, the schools for profit, the manufacturers for the sake of the motorcycle industry. The schools would have to meet stringent standards so that it doesn't become the joke that some so-called "traffic schools" are.


We'd have to iron out the logistics of what to do with the license motorcyclists who have been operating motorcycles prior to these new requirements.
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Old 02-29-2008, 04:10 PM   #25
PacWestGS
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I rode bikes on Army posts (CONUS and Oversees) since 1980 until retiring in 2002, and still have three bikes registered for on base privileges.

There is nothing I repeat (almost) nothing more difficult than getting a motorcycle registerd on a military base. The dog-n-pony show you have to submit too is rediculous and at the whim of the current base commander.

There is nothing more that can be done to discourage a rider from wanting to go through all the steps and requirements.

If "smithy" is going to kill him/her-self there is nothing the base commander or senior leadership can do to prevent this. Short of taking away "HIS or HER" indiviual right to ride ON BASE by denying post registration.

The solution is holding the individuals immediate first line supervisor responsible for what their subordinates do on and off duty. That is the best thing about the military; there is accountability.

I had a few rules, and one of them was, "I don't care what time of day/night it is, you call me and I'll get you or find a ride for you - don't drive stupid." That rule carried me through form my DUI (Crashed bike) as an E-5 until I retired. It was always better - easier - to get someone before they had trouble than after.

Without going on some lengthy disertation

I believe this was true when I was in and true to this day.

If you kill yourself on/off-duty while riding a MC and you are in violation of current post rules including helmet use, SGLI and medical benefits are null and void regarless of who was at fault.

Maybe that messsage is not getting out to the surviving family members that they got SHIT!
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Old 02-29-2008, 04:28 PM   #26
peter_sd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhpr262
I think that one of the simplest ways to reduce the number and severity of accidents would be to impose a horsepower limit on the bikes a soldier can ride during his first two years after he gets his motorcycle licence, lets say 50hp or less.

Here in Germany we have a tiered licence system that restricts newbies to a 34hp bike during their first two years, and with very good reason. Plus, such a ruling would discourage newbies from the oh-so-popular sportbikes that are even harder to ride than a standard or cruiser of equal horsepower.

Ideally, such a restriction would steer the young soldiers towards bikes like the 250 or 500 Ninja, the Suzi GS 500, a dualsport thumper, or the Honda CBF 500 or 600 (not sure whether they´re available in the US), ideal beginnerbikes, proven over many years.

P.S. I´d also make proper protective clothing absolutely mandatory - full face helmet, protective jacket and trousers, sturdy boots, leather gloves.

P.P.S. And you might think about making some REAL training mandatory and available for the soldiers. The BRC may be the best thing available in the US, but compared to the training riders in Germany are required to undergo for their licence it is pretty much a joke, judging from all I´ve heard and read about it.
I agree with this 100%.


I live in SoCal near Camp Pendelton on any weekend you can go to any Motorcycle shop around here ( we have 5 in a 15 mile radius ) and see the young guys buying sportbikes (gsxr r6 r1 cbr) as there first bikes.
I talked to 1 salesman that tried to talk a guy out of buying one but sold it to him anyway (he said if he didnt sell it to him someone else would).

There is a crash on Palomar mtn. almost every weekend sometimes 70% of times it new riders.
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Old 02-29-2008, 05:33 PM   #27
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Where's the analysis?

What sort of accidents are the soldiers involved in? Where? Are they alcohol related?

Understanding the problem goes a long way toward finding solutions. Some people would even say it's silly to talk about solutions first...

Anyway, make training readily available and even required. BRC, ERC, and ARC would be a good start. I also like the idea of MWR having dirt bikes and dirt bike school available cheap. Run bike control competitions on post regularly. Make it cool to have skill and give props where they're due. Advertise in the base paper. Lead group rides with young and old sodiers.
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Old 02-29-2008, 05:47 PM   #28
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Gov't property.... get used to it or get out.... Sorry, but as a former active duty Marine, it gets drilled into your head to follow orders, not debate them. Knee jerk reactions are a fact of life... get used to it.... the service is NOT a union, democratic society, or free way of of life. You do what you're told, when you're told.....

Edit: I think the MSF courses should be mandatory before licensing.... for military... but, like I said above, it's usually smarter to do what you're told.....

gettr screwed with this post 02-29-2008 at 05:55 PM
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Old 02-29-2008, 06:34 PM   #29
PacWestGS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2slo
What sort of accidents are the soldiers involved in? Where? Are they alcohol related?

Understanding the problem goes a long way toward finding solutions. Some people would even say it's silly to talk about solutions first...

Anyway, make training readily available and even required. BRC, ERC, and ARC would be a good start. I also like the idea of MWR having dirt bikes and dirt bike school available cheap. Run bike control competitions on post regularly. Make it cool to have skill and give props where they're due. Advertise in the base paper. Lead group rides with young and old sodiers.
I can tell from past experience/knowledge - Yes, alcohol related and or excessive speed for road conditions are the leading cause of fatalities.

The "problem" is - immaturity or lack of proper judgment coupled with isolation and a rebellious spirit.

Training (MSF or Other State approved) has been mandatory since at least ~ 1988 to ride a motorcycle on a military post worldwide by anyone military or not. If there was an absence of that it was a matter of non-compliance with DOD Regulations.

Active participation or condoning of a hazardous activity will never happen on a military base, I'm surprised they still have shooting ranges sponsored by the MWR, but the commanders will never support a riding program on base due to liability concerns.

Even if that would lead to fewer collisions and loss of life.
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Old 02-29-2008, 07:10 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dppeter
Another interesting point - Tricare will not pay for motorcycle related injuries if the member hasn't taken the approved on-base course. (This from an Active Air Guard perspective).
I can also tell you that whenever an accident happens to an Active Duty Air Force member it must be reported through channels. Some of the (mandatory) verbage on the report is whether or not the member has taken the safety course.
I don't always agree with the military perspective on personnel management but you have to understand as an Active Duty member you are a military asset, and that's how you are thought of. I know it's all about taking care of our military families now and all that retoric. But the bottom line for the higher brass is the military member is a fighting unit, an asset, a number.

SMSgt, USAF, Retired.
I know that tricare has the right to refuse to pay, but always does. There have been a few incidents on my ship and at my current command where people have gotten injured and have not had the proper training and/or ppe and tricare has still paid out without question.
I know there may a little NJP for those cases but the medical care was never the question. We are quite valuable.. apparently.

-alan
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