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Old 02-29-2008, 08:25 PM   #31
moymurfs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharwaylok
It's your typical knee jerk reaction to Joes and Jar-heads getting too much money in their pockets and too little sense in their heads. The same is true for cars, as bikes.

Young troops with time on their hands and a few beers too many in their belly and they get stupid.

So the brass takes what action to protect them.

MSG ret.

That pretty much sums it up.....
I work the "other" side of it.....being a leo in tidewater Va (that's all around Norfolk for you oustiders) as well from a Navy family.... It's more common to see the younger military (primarily NAVY) kid from "Ohio" either haulin' ass or doing something stupid on his sport bike than simply tooling in traffic. Stupid is as stupid does. A few ruin it for everyone....just like most things. Since they can't take care of themselves someone else will.... and all will suffer.
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Old 02-29-2008, 10:36 PM   #32
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My experience

I am currently in the Army and here is what I had to do to ride on post, so that you may know what military riders go thru.
1. I needed a motorcycle endorsement on my civilian license.
2. I needed to take a MSF class. I took the advanced course since I have been riding some time and already took the basic MSF class.
3. Get an on post sticker (this required all of the above along with insurance and registration)
4. I had to have my motorcycle inspected by the Squadron motorcycle NCO.
5. Got a “safety” speech from my CO and Squadron Commander. (neither of which ride)
6. Had to show my safety gear during my “safety” speech. I also had to promise to wear my gear every time I ride.
During my speech by the SCO he specigicly stated that he would ban all motorcycles if he could get it past IG.
The Army also has a mentorship program in place to link up experienced riders with new riders.
An interesting side note, if you look at the statistics of the motorcycle accidents there is one thing that will stick out at you. The number one motorcycle ridden in class A accidents was a Suzuki GSXR 1300 Hayabusa.
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Old 03-01-2008, 12:02 AM   #33
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G.I. Means Government Issue. In other words -- They own you! They have a lot invested in you and your training and they want to get their investment back. They don't want it lying in the gutter with a tail pipe up its ass.

On the other hand, the military makes booze so freaking availabe, it's almost a job requirement to drink like a fish.

Next, you get these young troopers, just 6 months out of basic, and suddenly, they've got some bucks and a hole burning through their pocket. So naturally, it's Hybussa time! Then it's Miller time! then it's crash time.

Then the military looses its investment -- over what? A few beers and a few kicks.

Solution. Military personnel cannot ride motorcycle on base unless the following conditions have been met:

1. MSF Motorcycle course.

2. State motorcycle license endorcement

3. 8 hours motorcycle safety training conducted by base motorcycle safety NCO.

4. Proper Insurance

5. 1st Year, no bike over 40 HP

6. Any DUI = banned from riding on base forever.

7. Any riding injury resulting from negligence and/or loss of duty time -- banned foever and Article 32.

8. Random breath test coming into or leaving the base.
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Old 03-01-2008, 12:26 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifter
G.I. Means Government Issue. In other words -- They own you! They have a lot invested in you and your training and they want to get their investment back. They don't want it lying in the gutter with a tail pipe up its ass.

On the other hand, the military makes booze so freaking availabe, it's almost a job requirement to drink like a fish.

Next, you get these young troopers, just 6 months out of basic, and suddenly, they've got some bucks and a hole burning through their pocket. So naturally, it's Hybussa time! Then it's Miller time! then it's crash time.

Then the military looses its investment -- over what? A few beers and a few kicks.

Solution. Military personnel cannot ride motorcycle on base unless the following conditions have been met:

1. MSF Motorcycle course.

2. State motorcycle license endorcement

3. 8 hours motorcycle safety training conducted by base motorcycle safety NCO.

4. Proper Insurance

5. 1st Year, no bike over 40 HP

6. Any DUI = banned from riding on base forever.

7. Any riding injury resulting from negligence and/or loss of duty time -- banned foever and Article 32.

8. Random breath test coming into or leaving the base.
Although I agree with your logic, what are these guys fighting for? Yours and "their" freedom to choose and live free.

The military is and has always been a social test tube, if we as a society start stipulating bans on certain freedoms (other than duty and discipline) then it doesn't take long for those freedoms to be forced down the throats of society at large.

They can already take away many of those 'rights' for an alcohol related offense - and it doesn't only apply to MCs but all forms of transpotation. And, you would have to kill someone for an Article 32 investigation. I think you mean Article 15 UCMJ.

I think the numbers are smaller than what is reported, but commanders want a zero tolerance scale of wasted loss of life. If young folks started rolling big trucks and killing themselves or others you'd see a crack down on lifted 4X4s.

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Old 03-01-2008, 08:02 AM   #35
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Just make it mandatory that for the first year, no bike over a 650cc twin.
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Old 03-01-2008, 09:05 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisjohn
How ironic the land of the free has so many inhabitants who are really against personal freedom.

More soldiers, Marines, airmen, seamen are killed via EtOH than anything else. Close the Class VI? Don’t think so. If the individual wants to destroy their mind, body, and bank account that’s their business. Along this same line, automobiles are more dangerous statistically, but payments are a great way to keep lower enlisted coming back for more; thus there is never any attempt to restrict ownership.

Yes, military members voluntarily give up MANY of their rights and certainly are bound to follow orders, I detect former 1Sgts in some of the previous posts, but it does not follow that such obedience should be abused, which banning motorcycle riding clearly is.

People must bare the consequences of their actions, it’s the only way we learn and grow. Some never do and that is okay. Aversion to accepting consequences is destroying America. How did we as a nation move from acknowledging the individual as being sentient and capable of positive and negative actions to infantilization and needing protection from himself? Sometimes stupid can not be fixed. Individuals will do stupid things and die, it’s our nature.
I have nothing to add to this.
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Old 03-01-2008, 09:13 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtired
Why not implement the following for EVERYBODY:

1) The registration of the street-ridden motorcycle cannot be completed unless the assigned buyer shows proof of completing his/her DMV test and basic MSF course.


You can't get your DoD stickers unless you do this at the VRO...
Also you NEED your MSF card tog et through the gate..NO exceptions.
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Old 03-01-2008, 10:31 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisjohn
Individuals will do stupid things and die, it’s our nature.


+1
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Old 03-01-2008, 11:31 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PacWestGS
Although I agree with your logic, what are these guys fighting for? Yours and "their" freedom to choose and live free.

I think you mean Article 15 UCMJ.

I think the numbers are smaller than what is reported, but commanders want a zero tolerance scale of wasted loss of life. If young folks started rolling big trucks and killing themselves or others you'd see a crack down on lifted 4X4s.

yes, I meant Article 15 (been a while). If young troops start killing themselves in 4X4 accidents, the military would absolutely address the issue. They certainly wouldn't want the same scenario involving military 4X4's would they?

One of the reason (as you iluded to), that we have our various freedoms is because we've had and have a strong military. (A national assest.) And again, anything that jepordizes military readiness must take priorithy over certain hazadous freedoms.
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Old 03-01-2008, 04:18 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifter
yes, I meant Article 15 (been a while). If young troops start killing themselves in 4X4 accidents, the military would absolutely address the issue. They certainly wouldn't want the same scenario involving military 4X4's would they?

One of the reason (as you iluded to), that we have our various freedoms is because we've had and have a strong military. (A national assest.) And again, anything that jepordizes military readiness must take priorithy over certain hazadous freedoms.
Umm..guess I would be in jail for repeatedly violating a military reg that bans motorcycles then.

Not to mention rules like that lower morale..which is a VERY important consideration in "readiness"

Besides motorcycles really are not that dangerous...unless you dont take care when operating them....you know kind of like a car, or tank, or helicopter, or torch, or saw...etc etc....

Motorcycle fatalaties are common..but not as common as car fatalaties....
Also ALOT of these MC fatalities occur when PPE isnt worn or DoD MC operator requirements are not met...

When those criteria ARE met, usually a car pulling out or soemthing causes the death of the MC rider.
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Old 03-02-2008, 12:56 PM   #41
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I don't think telling GIs they can't ride will help. My parents expressly forbid me from motorcycles. I just kept mine at a friend's (read: "off base".)

Likewise, I'm not convinced a size limit, alone, will help. It just delays the date that the GI will get onto a high-HP bike they're unprepared to ride.

Attitude is key. Commanders don't send their people into combat without the best training and gear. GIs need to come to the attitude that they can get just as dead on a bike. Until they internalize the attitude that training and gear are important, the problem won't get better.

So here are some thoughts...

1) Immediately raise the skill testing expectations. I've seen how sloppy someone can ride and still pass the standard MSF test. I'd expect a modern, fit soldier to be able to do better, and in my experience when I've had them in classes, they usually do, if you push them just a little.

2) Apply 1) to their own bike, not a 200cc training bike. If they get a new bike, they have to pass the basic skill test again on the new bike. If they can't, they can take the basic class until they do.

3) Given 2, an ERC isn't enough. They've already done that (From what I've heard, the current ERC exercises are mostly lifted from the BRC.) Look for another level- maybe Lee Parks' ARC, or something like Team Oregon's ART- a class that has more focus on bike control and/or actual road technique.

4) Require ongoing training. Pass the basic class, then they need to take the next class within X time period.

5) Find out where the accidents / fatalities are really happening. Wearing visibility gear is a bit of a panacea, if the problem is "too fast for conditions". I could see where it may be helpful on base, but out in the twisties, it's only useful for finding the body.

6) apply 5) to 4). If the problem is speed, let trackdays count as training so they can get it out of their system, and find a provider that can work the safety angle. (CLASS comes to mind). If the problem is
cornering, something Team Oregon's ART, which focuses on technique without getting into warp-speed conditions.

In any case, I think it still comes back to attitude. They have to want to be safer.
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Old 03-02-2008, 01:21 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwoodward

Attitude is key.

5) Find out where the accidents / fatalities are really happening. Wearing visibility gear is a bit of a panacea, if the problem is "too fast for conditions". I could see where it may be helpful on base, but out in the twisties, it's only useful for finding the body.
When I pay attention to the local newspapers or follow some face plant section on the web, most fatal collisions involving a young GI, they are most often on a multi-laned freeway where the rider has either lost control and hits a concrete barrier, the back of a slower moving vehicle or has crossed the center line into opposite traffic (whether intentional - left turn, or non-intentional - loss of control.) Always exceeding the posted speed limit.

One of the last young troops at Fort Lewis to die on his motorcycle (crotch-rocket) was weaving at high speed in and out of a military convoy on I-5 just outside the base. He ran into the back of a 5-ton truck filled with troops who watched the whole thing happen... Stupid is what stupid does.

I don't think GI's crash and kill themselves on twisty roads any faster or more often than their civilian counterparts. But commanders don't seperate the statistics, they just have a dead GI and a family (NOK) to notify.

I think there are more or an equal amount of "Crusier" riders (I'm not going to say HD riders, but you get the drift) that kill themslves after "closing time" doing nothing more than driving off the road and hitting a fixed object, speed or intoxication most likely a contributing cause.
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Old 03-02-2008, 02:07 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwoodward
I don't think telling GIs they can't ride will help. My parents expressly forbid me from motorcycles. I just kept mine at a friend's (read: "off base".)

Likewise, I'm not convinced a size limit, alone, will help. It just delays the date that the GI will get onto a high-HP bike they're unprepared to ride.

Attitude is key. Commanders don't send their people into combat without the best training and gear. GIs need to come to the attitude that they can get just as dead on a bike. Until they internalize the attitude that training and gear are important, the problem won't get better.

So here are some thoughts...

1) Immediately raise the skill testing expectations. I've seen how sloppy someone can ride and still pass the standard MSF test. I'd expect a modern, fit soldier to be able to do better, and in my experience when I've had them in classes, they usually do, if you push them just a little.

2) Apply 1) to their own bike, not a 200cc training bike. If they get a new bike, they have to pass the basic skill test again on the new bike. If they can't, they can take the basic class until they do.

3) Given 2, an ERC isn't enough. They've already done that (From what I've heard, the current ERC exercises are mostly lifted from the BRC.) Look for another level- maybe Lee Parks' ARC, or something like Team Oregon's ART- a class that has more focus on bike control and/or actual road technique.

4) Require ongoing training. Pass the basic class, then they need to take the next class within X time period.

5) Find out where the accidents / fatalities are really happening. Wearing visibility gear is a bit of a panacea, if the problem is "too fast for conditions". I could see where it may be helpful on base, but out in the twisties, it's only useful for finding the body.

6) apply 5) to 4). If the problem is speed, let trackdays count as training so they can get it out of their system, and find a provider that can work the safety angle. (CLASS comes to mind). If the problem is
cornering, something Team Oregon's ART, which focuses on technique without getting into warp-speed conditions.

In any case, I think it still comes back to attitude. They have to want to be safer.


This makes sense and might even work. Therefore the military(and Army in particular) will never adopt it.


Again a good portion of the crashes I see around Fort Stewart that kill soldiers involve a motorist failing to yield to a motorcycle....usually while they are drunk or ona cell phone.

The vest thing. Yeah it helps..from behind.

In front You really only see fairing/headlight and a helmet, if you see anything beside the beer in your cupholder that is.

Very few rearenders happen to bikers around here.

They lame part is this.
They mandate a vest(of any color so lnog as it has its reflective portions for night time)
However a PT belt(reflective belt ) is not good enough?

BLue vest w/reflective strips or white shirt with big ass reflective belt worn like Rambo wears ammo...

What one would be easier to see at night? Noone cares what makes sense.....they just want to cover their own ass. They dont care about solving problems.

I'm stopping before I start cussing. I hate senior leadership in the Army with a passion. Cover their own ass and get promoted....that is their interest.

I wont even go into some of the "policies" they tried to enforce in Iraq.....
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Old 03-02-2008, 02:35 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dolomoto
Actually, I've been asked what I would do if I were in charge. I have the rare opportunity to have a "blank slate" from higher HQ about starting not only a motorcycle program but one that reduces crashes.
You might include a race and stuntz program on a controlled track to let the boys get their ya yas out.

I think if you could promote a culture of ATGATT and racing/stunting belongs on the track not on the street you could make a real change in the accident /injury rates. And if you can't address that at the rider level, no amount of training or "briefing" will make much difference. Not that training isn't a good or necessary thing, it's just that unless you can get the riders to buy into and own a safer attitude towards riding you won't really be able to change the way they ride.
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Old 03-02-2008, 02:36 PM   #45
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it matters not if the accident or crash is the riders fault! bases only want to get their numbers down. and that's on base as well as off. there's only two ways to do that...either ban cycles alltogether, or make it such that the riders themselves WANT to ride safely. i.e.- look for accidents developing before they arrive on scene. one big element is experence coupled with time in the saddle. the only resaonable way to in plant the safety gene is to hang this carrot in front of them. no on base riding priveledges without excelence! they are capible of this and since it's a gov. property it's not unreasonable to demand this of riders

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