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Old 02-11-2012, 06:12 AM   #481
klaviator
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Originally Posted by jules083 View Post

The best way, IMO, is to have new riders taught by experienced riders.

I couldn't agree more. I'd take it a step further and also let experienced riders make the rules. Or at least someone who understands safety. Far to many of the regulations concerning motorcycles and safety are were written by people who understand neither.
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Old 02-11-2012, 12:56 PM   #482
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Rather than a no bikes policy, maybe a ban on bikes larger than 500cc




Huh
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Old 02-11-2012, 03:10 PM   #483
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Rather than a no bikes policy, maybe a ban on bikes larger than 500cc


Huh
Another example of someone not getting it.

It ain't about engine size:

HD 1550cc = 65hp
CBR600RR=105hp

There's hardly a correlation between engine size and HP. It ain't outright speed that gets our folks in trouble...it's usually poor judgement.

'cept for the two folks around here who just lost their life....bad luck.
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Old 02-11-2012, 05:10 PM   #484
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Originally Posted by jules083 View Post
The best way, IMO, is to have new riders taught by experienced riders.
Sorry, I'm slow. Given that every MSF instructor is also a rider, wouldn't simply meeting current training requirements satisfy that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by klaviator View Post
I couldn't agree more. I'd take it a step further and also let experienced riders make the rules. Or at least someone who understands safety. Far to many of the regulations concerning motorcycles and safety are were written by people who understand neither.
That I could get behind, if anyone in the military cared what I thought.
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Old 02-11-2012, 05:11 PM   #485
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Originally Posted by dolomoto View Post
Another example of someone not getting it.

It ain't about engine size:

HD 1550cc = 65hp
CBR600RR=105hp
KLR650- ~38hp?
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Old 02-11-2012, 06:31 PM   #486
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KLR650- ~38hp?
On a good day...



There's no "easy" solution to GI's crashing. I don't buy into the "6' tall and bulletproof" theory.

BTDT.

Nor do I think there should be restrictions on cc's...(mostly because the USA does not have a realistic <50hp market).

Just 2 weeks ago, I was speaking with an E4...he'd just bought his first moto..a Kaw ZX6R. I'd suggested: Kaw EX500R "Ninja", SV650S, Kaw Ninja 650R....in the end, he went with what his "homeys" had suggested.



I wished him the best of luck, cautioned him on the consequences of a few seconds of poor judgement...and just let him go on his way.

I'm his direct supervisor, but if I want him to LISTEN to what I have to say...well, then...that's a real challenge.

I've had him over for dinner...I've got a wall of photos of me roadracing at various tracks, dragracing at some mighty fine tracks and touring around the world (at least 3 continents). IOW, I was hoping that this young man would seek the advice of someone who'd "been around"

No such luck.

Some folks absolutely believe that they must Live and Suffer the same consequences as the Ones before them...without regard to the Lessons that just don't have to be learned over and over and over...again.

My moto injuries: broken ribs, separated shoulder, broken thumb, minor road rash, concussion, numerous contusions, wrecked patella (kneecap), torn ACL...there are a few other minor injuries...

I can't fix stupid.

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Old 02-12-2012, 05:29 AM   #487
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Sorry, I'm slow. Given that every MSF instructor is also a rider, wouldn't simply meeting current training requirements satisfy that?
Nothing against the MSF course or MSF instructors, but taking the MSF basic course is like completing first grade. It's a nice start but nowhere near adequate for making someone a safe rider.

I took the basic course three times and the ERC once. Not all of the instructors where all that experienced and there was a lot lacking in those courses.

If the military really wants to put a dent in motorcycle accidents and fatalities they have the resources to take training to a higher level than what they do now.

When I was stationed in San Diego in the late 80s, they had all the motorcycle riders in the area go to Miramar for a day of training. We even rode our bikes there. It was a great idea but very disappointing. I was pretty sure the training was put together by a non-rider.

More training is good but only if it's useful training.
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Old 02-12-2012, 11:04 AM   #488
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Personal theory: if you wanna stop accidents teach em racing. Getting your jollies on a closed course, under supervision, ON BASE means that the riders aren't going to say, go racing up Palomar on the weekends. I know from racing bicycles that 8/10ths and up doesn't have a place on the open road.

IDK what to do about the cruiser riders other than keep em away from bars.

M
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Old 02-12-2012, 02:31 PM   #489
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Originally Posted by Gummee! View Post
Personal theory: if you wanna stop accidents teach em racing. Getting your jollies on a closed course, under supervision, ON BASE means that the riders aren't going to say, go racing up Palomar on the weekends. I know from racing bicycles that 8/10ths and up doesn't have a place on the open road.

IDK what to do about the cruiser riders other than keep em away from bars.

M
The USMC and USN have done quite a bit in that area. The USAF and USA have been more reluctant to encourage advanced rider education.
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Old 02-12-2012, 04:54 PM   #490
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Originally Posted by dwoodward View Post
Sorry, I'm slow. Given that every MSF instructor is also a rider, wouldn't simply meeting current training requirements satisfy that?
No, a MSF course is not a one on one long term school. Granted they teach a lot, but it's not enough. Both times I taught new riders from nothing we spent days in a basically deserted state park that had good clean roads and almost no traffic. The MSF course has a top speed of what, 20mph maybe? Just going through town is normally 35 to 45 with traffic involved, and back roads are typically 45 to 55 with traffic. Riders need to be able to handle speed with an experienced person there also. Things like wind and counter steering are a lot different between 10mph and 65mph.
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Old 02-12-2012, 07:27 PM   #491
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Originally Posted by jules083 View Post
No, a MSF course is not a one on one long term school. Granted they teach a lot, but it's not enough. Both times I taught new riders from nothing we spent days in a basically deserted state park that had good clean roads and almost no traffic. The MSF course has a top speed of what, 20mph maybe? Just going through town is normally 35 to 45 with traffic involved, and back roads are typically 45 to 55 with traffic. Riders need to be able to handle speed with an experienced person there also. Things like wind and counter steering are a lot different between 10mph and 65mph.
I just "retired" as a MSF-certified RC. I helped about 1500 riders with their skills over the 12 active years I taught. For sure, the BRC is a BASIC course. We routinely told the riders that the completion card simply meant that they somehow managed to maneuver a 12hp motorcycle around a closed course, under the watchful gaze of two Instructors, around some cones, with no traffic and with several hours of classroom instruction. This surely did not mean that every rider was ready for the street. I counseled many (hundreds?) riders that they needed more practice, or (rarely) that motorcycling was not for them...maybe they should buy a boat instead?

For what it is..the MSF BRC (and Oregon's better, modified RSS) teaches basic skills better than any other course.

The BRC is a starting point.

YMMV.
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Old 02-12-2012, 07:47 PM   #492
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This happened last week...

One person is dead and another injured after a motorcycle collided with a vehicle near the intersection of First Division Road and First Cavalry Division Road, near Red Cloud Range on Thursday.

According to Fort Benning Public Affairs, 56-year-old Fred Roberts, a trainer developer employed by the Directorate of Training and Doctrine, was taken to Columbus Regional Medical Center where he died of injuries suffered in the accident.

20-year-old Private Fist Class Amanda Willey, a lab technician, was injured in the early morning traffic accident and transported to Martin Army Community Hospital for evaluation. She was later released.

According to the public affairs office, Roberts was driving his motorcycle westbound on First Division Road when he struck Willey's sedan as she was attempting to cross the intersection.


The only beef I have with the military requiring the classes is they only offer them during the week. Am I supposed to take leave just to take a required class to ride?
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Old 02-12-2012, 08:49 PM   #493
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The only beef I have with the military requiring the classes is they only offer them during the week. Am I supposed to take leave just to take a required class to ride?

We could run liberty chits to get off the do the military BRC.

The kicker was that when I was in Hawaii that wasn't enough to get the state to wave the riding test you had to take the BRC from UH for that. Which was ...difficult.....and 10 years ago it was three hundred bucks, god knows what they are gouging people for now.
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Old 02-12-2012, 10:18 PM   #494
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So he's wearing everything required by cuyrrent regs, but he's not in the line of duty. How does that work, exactly? Never mind, don't even try to explain. That's just fucking stupid.
Not saying that it should apply under current regs. The regs should be changed to require ATGATT.
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Old 02-13-2012, 02:19 AM   #495
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Not saying that it should apply under current regs. The regs should be changed to require ATGATT.
Safety is about preventing the preventable. Please explain how an ATGATT policy would prevent a collision or loss of vehicular control-type incident from occurring.

The first, OP, for this thread was:

What can the military leadership do to decrease the number and severity of motorcycle crashes

IMO, there is not really much leaders can do to decrease the number of crashes. With DUIs, we spread the word and do all sorts of educational stuff and some of it sticks, some doesn't. I have seen on TPC or AFN an hour long 'Ride Safe' special that I believe the Marines sponsored it. Tommy Glowers and a bunch of other guys do vignettes that highlight the need to think when you ride. It's good enough that I recommend it for my troops that ride.

If I can find digital copy of it, I'll buy a bunch of pizza and drinks and show it in the auditorium for all my riders during lunch one day.

Severity; sure ATGATT may help reduce injuries in certain instances, but nowhere near all of what we see.

Personally, I think the Marines have the most best ideas in policy/programs right now. That said, I'm not a Marine and don't have first hand knowledge of it.
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