GI's and motorcycle crashes...

[ValpoFz]

As a retired Marine that rode his entire career, I saw all kinds of knee jerk reactions and rules changes, most having very little to do with common sense.

[dwoodward]

Originally Posted by dolomoto

Yeah, you guessed it. It was like trying to explain Buddhism to a pair of goldfish.

In their minds, I would be better off with a LS cotton Tshirt, jeans, high-top sneakers, half helmet and golf gloves...but as long as I had on my magic vest...I'd be alright.

Of all the places to attempt to invoke common sense, you tried the military?

Truly, you should have known.

[dwoodward]

Originally Posted by Forde

the german army showed all their personnel this

That's fascinating, considering it was produced by the British Army.

[MotoErik]

Originally Posted by dwoodward

That's fascinating, considering it was produced by the British Army.

All Europeans are the same....

[mhpr262]

Originally Posted by Stoic96

Oh, and I've seen the German training classes first-hand. Very long, very expensive. But then--if they're so much better than MSF, why is the end result on the road the same?

Is it? I have never ridden in the US, but a great many riders from the US who have had some experience driving or riding in europe usually comment on how much more competent riders motorcyclists in europe tend to be.

Sure, riders here pull dumb shit too and die in single vehicle accidents, but does it happen in the same (relative) numbers? I can't recall how many stories I have heard of new riders crashing their bike still on the dealer's lot just on this forum, I have never heard of something like this happening in Germany.

[klaviator]

Originally Posted by mhpr262

Is it? I have never ridden in the US, but a great many riders from the US who have had some experience driving or riding in europe usually comment on how much more competent riders motorcyclists in europe tend to be.

Sure, riders here pull dumb shit too and die in single vehicle accidents, but does it happen in the same (relative) numbers? I can't recall how many stories I have heard of new riders crashing their bike still on the dealer's lot just on this forum, I have never heard of something like this happening in Germany.

I don't know about the riders in Germany and the rest of Europe but from my experience the drivers are much better in Europe than the average drivers here in the USA. I would guess the same goes for the riders. My experience comes from having done a fair amount of driving in Germany and Italy. It is much more pleasant driving there.

[willis 2000]

In lieu of any positive solution, the Army gives up and hires lieutenants to buy videos and vests, until a next-generation fix comes along. I propose some cycle manufacturer devise a program, with two of their bike designs dedicated to military riders. Vincent did it. This would be the model to allow young riders to progress through learning not to dab to riding double. I got bikes for my kids, I got my daughter a Buell Blast. She's a shorty and I got the low seat. Got it from a friend who looked ok on it with the tall seat. I was talking up the virtues of this bike before I rode it, good thing is it's better than expected. The cool thing is this bike buzzes the shit out of ya if you do it wrong. I didn't take it on the freeway. Got my son an evo Sportster. He's owned a couple of 500 UJMs and rode them too fast, slow bikes ridden fast. Good thing he never got his hands on four sportbike cylinders.I figure when he guns the Sporty, all he's gonna get is noise and vibration. Well, how about a lend-lease kinda deal. A one-two program. Ride the first one, turn it in for the big one. Stay out, civilians.

[dwoodward]

Originally Posted by klaviator

I don't know about the riders in Germany and the rest of Europe but from my experience the drivers are much better in Europe than the average drivers here in the USA

Perhaps Europeans- who by and large can get by without cars- don't view them as an automatic accessory, or consider operating them a "right" that everyone should have. Perhaps they still (for the most part) place some value in operating dangerous equipment with the respect it deserves- although I've been told it's worse than it once was.

Originally Posted by willis 2000

In lieu of any positive solution, the Army gives up and hires lieutenants to buy videos and vests, until a next-generation fix comes along. I propose some cycle manufacturer devise a program, with two of their bike designs dedicated to military riders. Vincent did it. This would be the model to allow young riders to progress through learning not to dab to riding double.

Try again when some of the coffee works it's way through- I have no idea what you're trying to suggest... but I have an inkling that what I think you're proposing won't solve the problem, which is the soldiers already evading the system.

[mrt10x]

Originally Posted by willis 2000

In lieu of any positive solution, the Army gives up and hires lieutenants to buy videos and vests, until a next-generation fix comes along. I propose some cycle manufacturer devise a program, with two of their bike designs dedicated to military riders. Vincent did it. This would be the model to allow young riders to progress through learning not to dab to riding double. I got bikes for my kids, I got my daughter a Buell Blast. She's a shorty and I got the low seat. Got it from a friend who looked ok on it with the tall seat. I was talking up the virtues of this bike before I rode it, good thing is it's better than expected. The cool thing is this bike buzzes the shit out of ya if you do it wrong. I didn't take it on the freeway. Got my son an evo Sportster. He's owned a couple of 500 UJMs and rode them too fast, slow bikes ridden fast. Good thing he never got his hands on four sportbike cylinders.I figure when he guns the Sporty, all he's gonna get is noise and vibration. Well, how about a lend-lease kinda deal. A one-two program. Ride the first one, turn it in for the big one. Stay out, civilians.

I have no idea what you just said.. please tell me you are not a lieutenant in the Army??

Originally Posted by klaviator

I don't know about the riders in Germany and the rest of Europe but from my experience the drivers are much better in Europe than the average drivers here in the USA. I would guess the same goes for the riders. My experience comes from having done a fair amount of driving in Germany and Italy. It is much more pleasant driving there.

I would buy this if Italy was not part of Europe.. worst drivers I have ever seen.. and that includes Thailand, Korea, and several US states.

[dwoodward]

Originally Posted by mrt10x

I would buy this if Italy was not part of Europe.. worst drivers I have ever seen.. and that includes Thailand, Korea, and several US states.

Define "worst"... "orderly" not being equivalent to "best".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate

The US mostly sucks hind tit for "first world" countries.

[mrt10x]

I think any further discussion would simply hijack this thread.. my observation was, of course, completely subjective.

[lemieuxmc]

But do youngsters in the Italian Army get in lots of bike crashes?

[klaviator]

Originally Posted by mrt10x

I would buy this if Italy was not part of Europe.. worst drivers I have ever seen.. and that includes Thailand, Korea, and several US states.

That was not my experience. However, all of the driving I did was in Sicily. It was a pleasure to drive there but I regret not having the chance to ride any of the times I was there.

I'm sure that the drivers in Italy vary depending on the area....just like they do in the U. S.

I do believe that the Average American driver will have problems driving in most other parts of the world. The driving conditions in most of the world are more demanding and the semi-comatose condition of the average American driver just won't work well in most places outside the U.S.

Actually, it doesn't work too well here either

[willis 2000]

At ease. I'm willing to clarify my previous statements, for those not accustomed to abstract thinking. The problem with GIs and motorcycle crashes has more to do with mindset and machine choice than other factors. Do you remember your first paycheck? I'm a big boy now, got another one coming in two weeks. A new sportbike is an irresistible icon to these guys. Nobody tells them how to spend their money. Few among you recommend sportbikes to new riders. A manufacturer should step up with a program that makes two models of motorcycle targeted at these individuals, with discounts and favorable trade-ins. And experienced motorcyclists understand the value of relaxing yet stimulating transportation Versys (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) competition with disaster. It's not a video game out there, no reset button, no additional lives are dealt.

[klaviator]

Originally Posted by willis 2000

At ease. I'm willing to clarify my previous statements, for those not accustomed to abstract thinking. The problem with GIs and motorcycle crashes has more to do with mindset and machine choice than other factors. Do you remember your first paycheck? I'm a big boy now, got another one coming in two weeks. A new sportbike is an irresistible icon to these guys. Nobody tells them how to spend their money. Few among you recommend sportbikes to new riders. A manufacturer should step up with a program that makes two models of motorcycle targeted at these individuals, with discounts and favorable trade-ins. And experienced motorcyclists understand the value of relaxing yet stimulating transportation Versys (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) competition with disaster. It's not a video game out there, no reset button, no additional lives are dealt.

While there may be some (maybe a lot) of logic to your idea, Logic has nothing to do with these guys buying that fast sportbike. I've been there and done that. It was something I had to get out of my system. If I hadn't bought that fast sportbike, I'd still regret it today. Luckily I survived my 20,000 miles on that FJ1100. Now that urge for a really fast sportbike is (mostly) out of my system. There's a saying on a T-shirt I really like: "To be old and wise, one must first be young and stupid."

For those who don't think of the FJ1100 as a fast sportbike, in 1985 it was.

I still think that the best way to get through to these guys is by using some experienced riders, riders who have been there and done that themselves, riders who are fast and have some credibility with these guys, and letting these guys try to influence the younger riders and set a good example. It helped in my case. Had I ended up riding with a bunch of out of control squids instead of some experienced (but fast) guys, things might have turned out far differently for me.