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Old 03-15-2008, 08:52 AM   #76
PacWestGS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USMCG_Spyder


What the Hell unit were you in where you couldn't count on your m8's to catch your six?
My thought process was much much higher up the CofC.

Of course I could count on the guys at the local level.
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PacWestGS screwed with this post 03-15-2008 at 10:54 AM
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Old 03-15-2008, 12:35 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by dolomoto
I just get a little wrapped around the axle when I hear about a rider crashing in a curve and they blame speed...when it's more likely the rider simply didn't lean enough.
Sort of. The technical term (at least around here) is "too fast for conditions", which sounds a lot like "speed".

If the rider was going faster than they were comfortable leaning the bike, they were still going too fast, yes?

The trick is figuring out what caused the "excessive" speed, and what to do about it. Just telling riders to "slow down" doesn't work, and nobody should be surprised about that. I strongly doubt many riders intend to find themselves going too fast- they probably thought they were just fine, right up to the point they were in trouble.

What seems to be the issue (this is from crash reports done in and around Oregon, YMMV) is insufficient visual lead. More plainly, the rider isn't looking far enough ahead/through the turn, they don't recognize the hazards in time to deal with them effectively. The hazard might be a traction hazard, or that the corner is tighter than initially thought, or even the simple fact that they can't see far enough to be able to see the traction hazard or judge the radius accurately. Either way, they plot a speed with insufficient data, and by the time they recognize it, it's too late.

As for leaning- sometimes the limiting hazard isn't the available traction- sometimes the limit is between the rider's ears. They need to recognize their own performance limitations and operate the motorcycle accordingly, including leaving some safety margin that's inside their comfort zone. To do so, they need to know what they're going to have to do to get around the next corner... which comes back to looking through the turn.

Quote:
He never got the confidence at manageable speeds (like in an ERC) and just thought what he was doing was good enough.
In which case, someone should help them understand that if those are their limits, they need to ride accordingly.
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Old 03-15-2008, 12:37 PM   #78
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Mentoring

On mentoring new riders- good idea. Put them with someone who has more experience can help.

The question then simplifies (ha!) to training riders to be effective mentors.
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Old 03-15-2008, 10:50 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by dwoodward
On mentoring new riders- good idea. Put them with someone who has more experience can help.

The question then simplifies (ha!) to training riders to be effective mentors.
David Hough and I have spoken at length about this - more so about general riding skills, than something specific to military members. The problem is this, what might make a good rider - knowledge and experience, but if he (or she) is not a very good communicator or understands the physics, then his skills are lost or poorly enterpreted. (Edit: Not to be taken as a derogatory statement just old facts: If you teamed up some young riders with a crusty old bastard who rode H-Ds his whole life he might make a statment like this, "Don't touch the front brake, it will cause you to crash", we know that is flat ass wrong, but still to this day, some rider's believe that.)

Something like the "Rider's Workshop" is a better format, where a qualified or experienced teacher (Rider Coach) takes several riders out for a day or weekend camp on known roads and works with them indiviually to imporve their riding.

Whatever there is there also needs to be an incentive to do it, or spend the money to go. Right now the insurance companies are not interested in giving someone with better training a bigger break, and I can't think of any other long term incentives that would make learning better.

Until the MSF stops being the only game in town as an accredited or certifying course, this will not happen.

If there is incentive to take something like a Lee Parks "Total Control" class or Reg Pridmore's Advanced Rider Course (ARC) and that comes with finacial savings, no one is going to spend the money, unless they would anyway.

The Army is sometimes big on supporting activities that are like-in-kind to military service, discounts on equipment or lessons for sky diving if assigned to a military free fall unit, or scuba diving classes, but for the life of me I don't see riding as a benefit to military service.

Maybe with $4.00/gal gas, that might change in the future, as more and more service members take up riding and the death toll rises.

Just my .02
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Old 03-16-2008, 12:37 PM   #80
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it would be interesting to have a look see at the marines riding programe for the fabled klr deisel troopers. there might be some "good stuff" in it, maybe , maybe not
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Old 03-16-2008, 12:43 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PacWestGS
The Army is sometimes big on supporting activities that are like-in-kind to military service, discounts on equipment or lessons for sky diving if assigned to a military free fall unit, or scuba diving classes, but for the life of me I don't see riding as a benefit to military service.

Maybe with $4.00/gal gas, that might change in the future, as more and more service members take up riding and the death toll rises.

Just my .02
Yeah morale isnt important at all..it only DIRECTLY affects retention and recruiting
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Old 03-16-2008, 12:55 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by dolomoto
What can the military leadership do to decrease the number and severity of motorcycle crashes (which are different from accidents)?
First and foremost they are adults and you have to trust they will make good decisions. Your life and the lives of others depends on their good decisions.

Tell them how valuable they are to the team and their country. Play hard, but play safe... respect speed and the laws of physics, just like anywhere.

How about pay for their first year to join a local civilian ride club? Plenty of mentors in the community. I've seen sailors, marines and soldiers get the riot act from some old guys about ATGATT... and they listened. Something about hearing it from some old fart who's had a few ribs busted and has one leg shorter than another now is more meaningful than a bucket full of memorandums.
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Old 03-18-2008, 03:03 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by DirtyOldMan
is what I think.
They got a lot of damn gall to tell a man he can't ride a M/C because it's to dangerous, yet send him out where folks are shooting at him. WTF!
I also think if there man enough to join the military, they're man enough to have a cold beer after hrs. 21 or not.
I agree.

While stationed in Germany I learned how they make someone ride a 250cc and 500cc for a time period before being allowed to own something bigger, I like this methodology. Bottom line is the war creates a lot of young men, with money and a need for excitement.
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Old 03-18-2008, 03:34 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAJ Todd
I agree.

While stationed in Germany I learned how they make someone ride a 250cc and 500cc for a time period before being allowed to own something bigger, I like this methodology. Bottom line is the war creates a lot of young men, with money and a need for excitement.
I agree with displacement and power limits...but it is just not possible for the military to prevent violations. Most GIs live off base and pretty much do what they want.

The problem riders must want to be better. Nobody likes to be lectured and a lecture is of very limited usefulness.

Now that idea of a riders workshop where a mentor takes a few riders on the road for some pointers...that is a great idea. I wonder if it would work....
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Old 03-18-2008, 09:49 AM   #85
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The way I see it more people die because of alchohol in the Army insetad of bikes....so...they should just leave us the hell alone until that changes.
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Old 03-19-2008, 07:20 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by the_gr8t_waldo
it would be interesting to have a look see at the marines riding programe for the fabled klr deisel troopers. there might be some "good stuff" in it, maybe , maybe not
It's not "fabled" and no, there's no magic in it. You're tagged by your unit to be a rider, you show up to class, and if you survive the curriculum, two weeks later you're licensed. Off road, mission oriented, business.

As far as off duty mentorship, I have seen what many units are beginning to do and its a good thing. We offer to coordinate group rides to what ever unit wants us to help. Everything to canyon rides to street cruises. There's something for everyone.
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Old 03-22-2008, 06:18 AM   #87
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Long time lurker first time poster. Over 20 years in the Army Reserve. This last week while checking my email on AKO, (the official Army website, for you non Army types) , there was an article posted in the Army Safety section about a BRC course given at FT. Gordon. It is an informative article about the BRC and Army Regs and motorcycling. The best part was the photo that was posted with the article. It showed a General Officer who was taking the course riding a bike during one of the exercises. In the photo the general was riding without eye protection. I made a call to the Safety Center and pointed this out to them. The photo was gone in minutes. Luckily I printed a copy. I made me wonder about the quality of the rest of the course.
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Old 03-22-2008, 08:36 AM   #88
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I am in the military and about to retire.I have read many accident reports and a lot of them could of been avoided. If the rider does not practice proper steering, then when that pucker moment arrives he or she will do the wrong thing and crash. Countersteering will save your butt, practice it, use it every time you ride.
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Old 03-22-2008, 10:25 AM   #89
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counter steering is a tool and if not being practiced, should at least be understood. the trouble is, as i see it, counter steering can just as easyly get you into trouble, if controled by someone who relys on impulses!
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Old 03-22-2008, 10:47 AM   #90
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Counter steering is how you steer a motorcycle. If riders would utilize it every day they would become a better safer rider. Look at the accident reports.If you use it all the time it will help you to avoid the car that just pulled out in front of you. Or make it thru the curve you entered to hot and so on.
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