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Old 03-22-2008, 01:19 PM   #91
the_gr8t_waldo
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most inexperenced riders actually belive that THEY can steer to avoid accidents! experenced riders realize that the only way to avoid 'em, is to reconize the conditions ahead of time and adjust (speed, line,whatever it takes!) before they arrive in the problem area.i have two countersteering tools in my own tool kit. one a back up! and have never used them!!
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Old 03-22-2008, 01:20 PM   #92
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I am retired military. I frequently stay in military temporary lodging during my motorcycle touring. It seems to me as though the miltary bases discourage motorcycle riding, since some, particulary U.S. Army seem to have way too many requirements for riding, plus some bases will not allow entry unless you've taken the base motorcycle safety class. Also, I would much rather be greeted by U.S. Military Personnel at the gate, rather than the civilian guards. IMHO, MP's are much more respectful and reasonable.

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Old 03-24-2008, 06:56 AM   #93
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As a rider with over 30 years I can tell you that you can steerto avoid an accident. Counter steering will save your butt If you use it every day. If you don't practice it, you will fail to do the right moves in that critical momment.
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Old 03-24-2008, 07:19 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dolomoto
There's always been quite a bit of attention from the brass about off-duty mishaps but lately (this last year or so) things have gotten to the point where some guys with stars on their shoulders want to ban riding motorcycles outright.

That is not only unreasonable but wouldn't make it pass the JAG (I think).

I'd rather this thread not be filled with info about your crash or anothers unless you can make it relevant to this:

What can the military leadership do to decrease the number and severity of motorcycle crashes (which are different from accidents)?

I don't think an orange vest has anything to do with crash reduction. Military members are supposed to complete an approved training course (currently MSF BRC or ERC--but we only have to take it once). Briefings usually go in one porthole and out another-besides most "briefings" are more about preachin' than teachin'.

So, what does the collective think?
I don't know where you got your information about motorcycles being banned for military members, but it sounds a bit like RUMOR CONTROL INSTIGATION. Do you have facts to support this?

The military has taken every reasonable risk mitigation to preserve the lives of it's members. When you combine young, inexperienced, adrenalin pumped, people with a steady pay check. Your going to have stupid people do stupid things. 18 Years of military service, and I've haven't seen Soldiers change much at all in the realm of common sense.

So when you put into place things like mandatory MSF classes that are at no expense to the Soldier, and a motorcycle mentorship program (if you don't have one, blame your leadership). The only thing you can do from there is hope that Soldier does the right thing when he or she is alone on the road.
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Old 03-24-2008, 07:45 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddaddy
I don't know where you got your information about motorcycles being banned for military members, but it sounds a bit like RUMOR CONTROL INSTIGATION. Do you have facts to support this?
...snipped...
The only thing you can do from there is hope that Soldier does the right thing when he or she is alone on the road.
Wow, all caps. I've witnessed a One star saying if he had it his way motorcycles would be banned. Had conversations with a few O5 and O6 folks who expressed similar sentiment. It's not a rumor my friend but also not likely or even possible.

They are just incredibly frustrated that GIs keep dying. Some of their attitude comes from the "every accident is preventable" mentality.

I refuse to believe taking a MSF course and mentoring is the only thing we can do. More education, on the road training, educate the cage operators through a mandatory briefing (yes, even the dependents can be made to attend), and sensible and forthright attention from the leadership (i.e. offer the course often enough that folks don't have to wait more than a week or so).

I had it out with a US Army civilian about the program at his base. I rode by and noticed they were teaching the course in 100+ degree weather/high humidity in August and had the soldiers in uniform. No shade available. The temp out on that ramp was probably around 135 degrees (I've measured it). I made some suggestions (shade, start at 0600 vs. 0900, civies) but was told well this is how the Army does it. If soldiers can't take the heat out on that ramp, how are they gonna stand it on the road?

There was no reasoning with this fellow. But, I'm just gonna go around him...it's gonna take time but eventually I'll get to talk with the right folks who can commit to making the course more unlike resistance training.

Thanks for the comments!
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Old 03-24-2008, 08:40 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dolomoto
Wow, all caps. I've witnessed a One star saying if he had it his way motorcycles would be banned. Had conversations with a few O5 and O6 folks who expressed similar sentiment. It's not a rumor my friend but also not likely or even possible.
Hence rumor control - which is nothing more than conversation. Unless there is an actual administrative / legal action in motion. I've witnessed politicians wishing to ban handguns, but that's not going to happen either.

Quote:
I refuse to believe taking a MSF course and mentoring is the only thing we can do. More education, on the road training, educate the cage operators through a mandatory briefing (yes, even the dependents can be made to attend), and sensible and forthright attention from the leadership (i.e. offer the course often enough that folks don't have to wait more than a week or so).
I agree more training is needed, but with out pushing into the civil rights or out of pocket expense, you can only mandate a reasonable level of requirements, which is more than any state government requires. I think the military should pay for all levels of MSF training. Here at Fort Lewis, They offer class weekly and year round. Driving has always been a privileged, not a right, but we govern by the peoples necessity. Rules are only good if the people accept them as reasonable and feasible. Keep in mind, If you make it so difficult for a Soldier to get a proper endorsement, guess what that Soldier is going to do?? The Wrong thing.

Quote:
I had it out with a US Army civilian about the program at his base. I rode by and noticed they were teaching the course in 100+ degree weather/high humidity in August and had the soldiers in uniform. No shade available. The temp out on that ramp was probably around 135 degrees (I've measured it). I made some suggestions (shade, start at 0600 vs. 0900, civies) but was told well this is how the Army does it. If soldiers can't take the heat out on that ramp, how are they gonna stand it on the road?
I had a similar experience when taking a MSF class. 90+ degrees, no water, no shade (uniform not required). I made my comments reminded them about liability and the next day there was a shade tent and a water cooler. Sorry your experience didn't have a better out come.
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Old 03-25-2008, 05:03 PM   #97
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The sportbike culture of flushmount blinkers and bolting your license plate up behind the rear wheel is just stupid, and unfortunately the young'uns like that shit. They're just trying to be cool (the days of being a dumbass young'un aren't that far behind me...) - so if they could somehow market those types of guys as squids and idiots - the kind of stupid morons you laugh at, I think it could change thier mindset.

There needs to be a culture change. What they don't need is to feel that when they're off duty that they have another checklist to follow or another inspectionable item. Something like, would an F-16 pilot fly without a flight suit? Would an EOD guy go out into the field without protection? Maybe having a base commander get all licensed riders together once a quarter for 30 minutes or so, and talk to them not as the big cheese, but as a guy who has some leverage and wants to help them be safer might be a good idea. If command is really concerned, I think an open and informal dialogue with the riders could go a long way. They'd listen to a General talking to them as an equal. (of course, some are more equal than others...)

PS - I work for the Air Force....
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Old 03-26-2008, 02:56 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burque Scott
Maybe having a base commander get all licensed riders together once a quarter for 30 minutes or so, and talk to them not as the big cheese, but as a guy who has some leverage and wants to help them be safer might be a good idea. If command is really concerned, I think an open and informal dialogue with the riders could go a long way. They'd listen to a General talking to them as an equal. (of course, some are more equal than others...)

PS - I work for the Air Force....
You work for the Air Force or you are in the Air Force?

Either way, I can tell you from a Jarhead standpoint that a General is always a General regardless of what he's wearing. He can come on down in civvies all he wants, he'll still be the Old Man and not a swingin' dick in that formation is gonna say or do anything to even hint at the fact that they might even consider the possibility of disagreeing with him.

"I think this is bullshit, sir"

"What's your name and unit, Marine?"

"Sir, Cpl. Schmuckatelli, Weapons 3/5 SIR!"

"Well, PRIVATE Schumckatelli, thank you for volunteering. Take off your jacket, accelerate your bike to an appropriate speed, then low-side in front of this formation."

"Sir, left side or right side, sir?"

"You choose. Marines, your next period of instruction will be 'Road Rash: What Not To Do'. Proceed, Private."

"Sir, aye aye SIR!"

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Old 03-26-2008, 08:49 AM   #99
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Old 03-27-2008, 11:33 AM   #100
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We just had our quarterly safety council meeting. The Army just passed the total number of motorcycle accidents we had in FY 2007!!!!!!!! We're only 1/2 through FY '08!!!!!
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Old 03-27-2008, 03:50 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USMCG_Spyder
You work for the Air Force or you are in the Air Force?
I work for 'em. Civilian gov't scientist, and I have to tell Colonels and that lot that they're mistaken on a regular basis, but admittedly, my world is considerably different than a Marine base or what some enlisted guy has to deal with, and I've seen that. (I can interject my ideas though, cuz I'm the expert and that's the whole reason I'm in the room. Otherwise they'd tell me leave or gtf out.)

But anyways, I was thinking more like an informal extended awareness training with Command approval and involvement, rather than some formalized military training with checklists and all the associated bullshit. More like a shoot-the-shit session, where guys can talk and they can try and change the culture from squid to sensible. Maybe something where they can tell stories and exchange thoughts, kinda like the Myths forum on this board as opposed to something serious and formal. Oh, and bring donuts. I always bring donuts, and for some reason, dudes in BDU's love donuts.
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Old 03-27-2008, 04:23 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAJ Todd
I agree.

While stationed in Germany I learned how they make someone ride a 250cc and 500cc for a time period before being allowed to own something bigger, I like this methodology. Bottom line is the war creates a lot of young men, with money and a need for excitement.
In my job with the military, I see reports of all sorts to include motorcycle accidents. In one report, the military member had just returned from Iraq. He bought a motorcycle. Four hours later he was dead. I only saw the initial report and it didn't have any information about type of motorcycle, what gear if any or training/experience.

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Old 03-27-2008, 06:49 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D R
In my job with the military, I see reports of all sorts to include motorcycle accidents. In one report, the military member had just returned from Iraq. He bought a motorcycle. Four hours later he was dead. I only saw the initial report and it didn't have any information about type of motorcycle, what gear if any or training/experience.
The 3rd ID is redeploying as we speak. Unfortunately, some soldiers will be "cutting loose" on their new bikes or one that they haven't ridden in over a year. Ft. Stewart is teaching MSF classes nearly every day to prevent an unnecessary backlog.

For some, it won't matter.
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Old 03-27-2008, 06:53 PM   #104
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Military

For Gods sake, keep our military people as safe as possible. Give them all of the MSF and military training possible. They are the heart and soul of America. God bless them all!!!

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Old 03-29-2008, 01:29 PM   #105
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You cant train good judgement..just show examples of it...
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