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Old 10-20-2010, 03:10 PM   #18001
arkridergc
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Fork Seals

Thanks Kawagumby for the intel. I think I can do that. Also thanks for the suggestion of ATF. Would that be Dextron-Mercon, synthetic, or the old Type F stuff or would it even matter? We always used type F in our circle track powerglides as it seemed a little grippier (and somewhat abrasive) on the clutch packs until I tore down a couple that had been using Royal Purple. They were amazingly clean inside unlike my black and burnt smelling type F'ers. Both of them had been ran an entire season and looked like fresh builds when I opened them up and really needed nothing. Needless to say, I'm a synthetic ATF and Motor oil fan. I just have no experience with m/c forks and such. Also, do you fill thru the air bleed on top of the fork?
Gary
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arkridergc screwed with this post 10-20-2010 at 06:58 PM
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Old 10-20-2010, 03:21 PM   #18002
GotMojo?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oh2RideMore
Dealer was able to recreate the fuel pump cutting out today They just called me to tell me the pump has been ordered and will be replaced under warranty. Really thought I was going to have to fight them, but worked out in my favor. Will get bike back next week with new pump. Good luck guys, just keep working on them dealers.
Nice! Dealer wasn't able to recreate the problem with mine, but from the voice mail I got from them the other day it sounded like the pump was on order. Called today to confirm that, but the dealer is closed on Wednesdays (????) so I'm hoping to confirm that tomorrow. After talking to the lady at Yamaha, I wasn't getting my hopes up, but sounds like it might be getting taken care of... sure hope so! I wanna ride that thing before it starts snowing!!!
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Old 10-20-2010, 04:27 PM   #18003
kawagumby
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkridergc
, do you fill thru the air bleed on top of the fork?
Gary
No. There's not enough room to fill due to the rebound adjustment mechanism. The most I've been able to fill at one time in the bleeder is about 10cc's for oil height adjustment purposes. Put the fluid in the upside-down positioned fork just before you screw the threaded bottom ass'y back in, with the fork extended enough so the fluid won't spill out and over.

As far as the ATF goes, I've used the old F type and the newer multi-spec stuff without noticing any difference. Forks don't generate the kind of loads or heat that would break anything down IMO. The main thing is to change the fluids at least as often as the seals go, as wear particulates can screw up the damping action (a shim stack) if they gum it up. The first change out has the most junk in it.
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Old 10-20-2010, 04:54 PM   #18004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkridergc
I have just finished the ride report from the trip that my brother Apostle2 and I took to the Silverton and Taylor Park areas of Colorado. We did the ride about a month back but work has delayed the writeup. Click on the "Two Brothers....ride Colorado" link in my signature and thanks in advance for reading.
Don't have my pickup with me but I have a 6 foot bed and I use a product that is about an 18" piece of billet aluminum that clips onto the bed on one side and the gate latch on the other side. About $50 bucks or so. Works great. Google and if you don't find I will go read the info on them.
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Old 10-20-2010, 05:16 PM   #18005
BigFeet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kawagumby
No. There's not enough room to fill due to the rebound adjustment mechanism. The most I've been able to fill at one time in the bleeder is about 10cc's for oil height adjustment purposes. Put the fluid in the upside-down positioned fork just before you screw the threaded bottom ass'y back in, with the fork extended enough so the fluid won't spill out and over.

As far as the ATF goes, I've used the old F type and the newer multi-spec stuff without noticing any difference. Forks don't generate the kind of loads or heat that would break anything down IMO. The main thing is to change the fluids at least as often as the seals go, as wear particulates can screw up the damping action (a shim stack) if they gum it up. The first change out has the most junk in it.

Just as you're sayin', I've read that changing out the factory oil can yield a noticeable improvement due to all the break in crud in the first fork oil change...

Anyone know what a good volume of oil is per fork on the WRR's? In other words, what works well versus what is specified?

Finally, read a couple of places that a good grade of 5w synth oil makes the WRR's forks perform well; heavier oils not so much. Again, not first hand experience so input welcomed..

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Old 10-20-2010, 06:27 PM   #18006
kawagumby
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigFeet
Anyone know what a good volume of oil is per fork on the WRR's? In other words, what works well versus what is specified?


BigFeet

The factory sez 20.72 oz. I'm no suspension pro, but my experience is that the oil volume dictates the oil height in the forks, which really should be set relative to the rider weight, skill, terrain etc. If you are bottoming forks on harder hits, but the spring rate seems about right otherwise, you need to increase the oil height in very small increments to the point where you are getting max travel w/o bottoming. (you can use zip ties on the fork tube to see how much travel is occurring). Conversely, if you aren't getting full travel even when you are landing off-into a 30' deep gravity hole, or hitting a 14" diameter log at 30 MPH....LOL... then you probably should reduce the oil level. The higher the oil height the sooner the forks begin to firm up in the later stages of travel, in addition to affecting maximum travel.
It's interesting to note that the factory settings for many models of off-road Japanese bikes is different for the USA, Canada and Europe. Often, Japanese bikes come with less fork oil for the exact same bike when it is a european model. I've noticed that I bottom forks too often with standard oil settings, so I usually add about 10-30 cc's to keep up above the dead hit ( while using 43's or similar springs, which I like). I ride a lot of horribly chopped-up trails with lots of small jumps, water-bars, square-edged holes, so the forks are really getting a work-out.

Mostly, the oil weight affects damping. So outdoor temperature, valving, etc., rider aggressiveness all come into play. Back in the day before valve stacks, I used to keep a lot of different oil viscosity's around to change damping - as my main tuning method - so I wouldn't have to fill holes up and redrill damping rods. Yes, I'm dating myself....LOL...and all the stuff I'm talking about is from my own experience, so take it with a grain of salt if you want to.
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Old 10-20-2010, 06:28 PM   #18007
chief_lee_visceral
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5w synth in mine but I was revalved and resprung by Motopro in woodinville WA
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Old 10-20-2010, 06:53 PM   #18008
BigFeet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kawagumby
The factory sez 20.72 oz. I'm no suspension pro, but my experience is that the oil volume dictates the oil height in the forks, which really should be set relative to the rider weight, skill, terrain etc. If you are bottoming forks on harder hits, but the spring rate seems about right otherwise, you need to increase the oil height in very small increments to the point where you are getting max travel w/o bottoming. (you can use zip ties on the fork tube to see how much travel is occurring). Conversely, if you aren't getting full travel even when you are landing off-into a 30' deep gravity hole, or hitting a 14" diameter log at 30 MPH....LOL... then you probably should reduce the oil level. The higher the oil height the sooner the forks begin to firm up in the later stages of travel, in addition to affecting maximum travel.
It's interesting to note that the factory settings for many models of off-road Japanese bikes is different for the USA, Canada and Europe. Often, Japanese bikes come with less fork oil for the exact same bike when it is a european model. I've noticed that I bottom forks too often with standard oil settings, so I usually add about 10-30 cc's to keep up above the dead hit ( while using 43's or similar springs, which I like). I ride a lot of horribly chopped-up trails with lots of small jumps, water-bars, square-edged holes, so the forks are really getting a work-out.

Mostly, the oil weight affects damping. So outdoor temperature, valving, etc., rider aggressiveness all come into play. Back in the day before valve stacks, I used to keep a lot of different oil viscosity's around to change damping - as my main tuning method - so I wouldn't have to fill holes up and redrill damping rods. Yes, I'm dating myself....LOL...and all the stuff I'm talking about is from my own experience, so take it with a grain of salt if you want to.
"Gumby, dammit"...

That's excellent info. I'm saving a link to this page.

Much appreciated,

Larry S.
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Old 10-20-2010, 06:54 PM   #18009
BigFeet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chief_lee_visceral
5w synth in mine but I was revalved and resprung by Motopro in woodinville WA
Thanks for the info!

I'm thinkin' I'm gonna send out my shock and forks pretty soon.

LS
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Old 10-20-2010, 06:58 PM   #18010
BigFeet
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Just lookin' at my archives...

In support of what Kawagumby says, HighFive likes Mobil 1 synth ATF for the forks on his WRR.

He said it doesn't fade like Amsoil fork oil does...'

FWIW..

Larry S.
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Old 10-20-2010, 08:41 PM   #18011
Krabill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kawagumby
The factory sez 20.72 oz. I'm no suspension pro, but my experience is that the oil volume dictates the oil height in the forks, which really should be set relative to the rider weight, skill, terrain etc. If you are bottoming forks on harder hits, but the spring rate seems about right otherwise, you need to increase the oil height in very small increments to the point where you are getting max travel w/o bottoming. (you can use zip ties on the fork tube to see how much travel is occurring). Conversely, if you aren't getting full travel even when you are landing off-into a 30' deep gravity hole, or hitting a 14" diameter log at 30 MPH....LOL... then you probably should reduce the oil level. The higher the oil height the sooner the forks begin to firm up in the later stages of travel, in addition to affecting maximum travel.
It's interesting to note that the factory settings for many models of off-road Japanese bikes is different for the USA, Canada and Europe. Often, Japanese bikes come with less fork oil for the exact same bike when it is a european model. I've noticed that I bottom forks too often with standard oil settings, so I usually add about 10-30 cc's to keep up above the dead hit ( while using 43's or similar springs, which I like). I ride a lot of horribly chopped-up trails with lots of small jumps, water-bars, square-edged holes, so the forks are really getting a work-out.

Mostly, the oil weight affects damping. So outdoor temperature, valving, etc., rider aggressiveness all come into play. Back in the day before valve stacks, I used to keep a lot of different oil viscosity's around to change damping - as my main tuning method - so I wouldn't have to fill holes up and redrill damping rods. Yes, I'm dating myself....LOL...and all the stuff I'm talking about is from my own experience, so take it with a grain of salt if you want to.
I'm not so sure your assessment of fork oil level is correct. I'm no suspension expert, but I've heard from a pretty reliable source that fork oil level will dictate how harsh your forks are over small bumps like a rocky trail and washboard.

Less oil in the forks = more air. Air compresses, oil doesn't. With a larger air gap in your forks, they will be "softer" going over little bumps, washboard, etc. since the air compresses before the valves even move through the oil.

More oil in the forks = less air = harsher ride over little bumps.

Oil level doesn't really effect the big bumps (jumps) because that first little bit of movement that the air takes up is used up so quickly that oil level doesn't really play into it.

Going by that logic, bottoming out over jumps has very little to do with oil level and more to do with oil viscosity and compression damping settings.

If you keep adding oil to try and get your forks to stop bottoming out over jumps you're going to wind up with a horribly harsh ride over the little stuff.

That's the way I understand it anyway.
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Old 10-20-2010, 10:05 PM   #18012
kawagumby
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Fork oil height does affect total travel and it's a rather basic element of fork tuning.
As I noted earlier, if the spring rate is correct, minor changes in oil height does impact final travel characteristics ( the greater diameter fork, the less height per cc). As I said, fork oil height affects the later part of travel only, so it does not come much into play for riding where the forks are not compressed. I'm an A level cross-country rider, and I've never noticed minor differences in fork oil height to affect fork harshness on small bumps, and I have tuned my own suspensions for decades. What affects small bumps most is compression damping in your compression stack, which can also be modified with shim alterations.

My 96 WR250z stock oil level made riding a drag on rough downhills, adding 15 cc's to each leg made all the difference in the world in control.

This stuff isn't like debating the holy trinity, you can easily check out the effect of oil height on fork travel yourself rather than rely on someone else's say-so, pro or con (if you push the bike hard enough to do so). Just mark the total fork travel as is, then add only 10 cc's per side and recheck travel and feel, I think you'll get the picture.

Edit -
Here is a quote from a respected source for ye of little faith :

"Oil level can drastically alter bottoming resistance and only affects the last part of travel (near bottoming). If you like the action but the forks bottom too easily, raise your oil level by 10 mm."

(Race Tech - Fork Gold Valve Installation instructions)
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kawagumby screwed with this post 10-20-2010 at 10:33 PM
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Old 10-21-2010, 04:35 AM   #18013
greer
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The stuff the factory puts in there is pretty thin, much thinner than syn ATF from what I could tell. The replacement stuff Yamaha calls for (Suspension Oil 01) was big $$$ when the local dealer pulled it up on the parts fiche. I ended up using Pro Honda (Showa) SS7 suspension fluid.

Sarah
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Old 10-21-2010, 05:59 AM   #18014
fred flintstone
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Variable volume air tanks for front forks, to tune the air spring component of a sealed fork...good discussion of principles of operation

http://www.tootechracing.com/Kayaba%20Air%20Tanks.htm
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Old 10-21-2010, 06:44 AM   #18015
z@ch
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Do Not Use Msr Fork Seals
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