ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Thumpers
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 07-13-2011, 02:36 PM   #23281
DougZ73
Fading off.........
 
DougZ73's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2009
Location: NJ
Oddometer: 6,827
Basher: You still need shock setting demo vid??

I may be able to use to my droid to make a quick one either tonight or tomorrow.
__________________
Skyline Drive 11/2010 , Catskills 2010 trip, Catskills 2011 , Southern TNJT, 2011
DougZ's MTB thread , DZ Moto Photo Bloggin' , (my) Learning photography thread, DougZ vids
- Ryder Joseph Z. , Born 11/26/12-- the next Adventure: Grayson Hunter Z., born 5/3/14
DougZ73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2011, 04:44 PM   #23282
Jäger
Osons
 
Jäger's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2009
Location: NW MT/SE BC
Oddometer: 790
And now you know... the rest of the story.

We started out with this when I suddenly discovered my chain was busily eating my swingarm like a fat kid eats potato chips: http://advrider.com/forums/showthrea...3#post16204213

So... the rest of the story...

Let's start with a few pics... the sad sight I was shocked to see:







Figured I let the chain get so loose it was throwing and rubbing on the Sandman case protector...



So I parked the bike, kicked my ass a whole bunch for being so incredibly negligent I didn't notice that happening while doing regular chain maintenance, posted about it here, etc. Couldn't believe how I had been such a moron to allow that to happen - especially after I thought I was being wary of that after seeing it happen to others. But didn't understand either, as I run my chain a bit on the loose side of the adjustment range and check it regularly while doing chain lube chores. This is supposed to be caused by tight chains. Or 12 tooth sprockets if you prefer that reason. Neither of which applies to me.

Turns out nobody seems to keep these "seal protectors" in stock. Eventually, my fast-as-possible delivery "seal protector" arrived via 2nd Day air once the seller got it from Yamaha - just one, because after I got it fixed I was going to see if somebody would soon make a better aftermarket one.

Had to go to town to attend an appointment with the lawyer the same day the replacement slider arrived. So I left off replacing the sprockies and chain (because they still looked more than acceptable and the chain didn't seem to have any tight or loose spots) for the next day. With a properly adjusted chain, and a new chain slider, how bad could 20 miles be?



Well, as it turned out, this bad:





After my wife told me to quit screaming and brought a crowbar out and pried me off the ceiling of the garage, I checked the chain tension: 8mm spacing while on the sidestand, perfect Yamaha adjustment. WTF, over?

Screw waiting for my brother to show up, I started tearing my wounded little bike apart to try and figure out what the hell was going on. Tore swingarm, linkies, shock, Yamalink etc off to check for seized bearings or collars or something. Didn't know exactly what I was looking for, as a mechanic I ain't. But I'm a jackleg machinest and I figured something had to be seized or bent or something. Everything moving and lubed. Even started measuring stuff up with micrometers and dial indicators, trying to find something that wasn't right. Didn't have the courage to throw calipers in the worn slot to see how much material was left... I figured this would be one of those cases where ignorance is bliss.

No luck with any of that, but it did allow a closer view of the damage:





Couldn't find anything wrong. I was goin' crazy here. Until I decided to check and see if I should be ordering a new rubber insert for the rear chain guide while I was ordering a couple of dozen chain sliders. And then I saw what at first seemed like a rubber part had peeled up and come adrift.





And then I suddenly realized what I was looking at:



A damned rock! Well worn in by now.

Talk about The Golden BB taking you out. What are the chances of a rock coming up off the front tire, and being perfectly aligned with the opening of the chain guide when it hit it. And not only being perfectly aligned and arriving at an instant when the chain was high enough in the guide to let it enter, but being big enough to stick and not small enough that the chain simply pulled it out the back?

To make The Golden BB effect even better, it wasn't just any kind of rock. No, it couldn't be one of the softer sedimentary rocks around that would have been quickly fractured or ground down. See that kind of waxy look? That rock is chert. For those who have never worked underground in a hard rock mine, chert is the kind of rock that makes hard rock miners cry like little girls when they find their drill sub is in chert; they drop their lunch pails so they can carry an extra bag of drill bits. It ain't as hard as steel, but hard enough - another name for chert is "flint".

Yes, what are the odds? The perfect Golden BB.

So I threw the new sprockets and chain I had on hand (14/49, 112 link chain). Once I get over being pissed off, maybe I'll go examine the old chain to see just how badly it is worn, measure the gullet on the sprockies, etc. Or maybe not...

So now the cause of what happened is solved, patch the swingarm. Toyed briefly with getting a skilled welder to fill it in, then thought of what doing that would entail, possibility of things going bad, etc. Decided to skip that idea. Filed out the damaged area and fitted a small piece of round stock that would fit in the resulting notch to provide a hard point to stop further chain wear on the swingarm should this ever happen again. Hardened it up and then fitted it in and filled the notch with JB Weld.



I had intended to take a Dremel and shape the repair to match the curve of the swingarm. Then I noticed it was close already (didn't want to shape more of the hardened JB Weld than I had to) and didn't interfere with where the swingarm slider sat, even when it was a little bit proud. So I left it and called it good.

Now I had a fixed bike (I hoped... by this point I was pretty gun shy). But while I had ordered two more swingarm sliders, they wouldn't get here for a week and I was back on foot and mountain bike again. So I decided to try my luck and see what would happen: repair the damaged "new" slider. Grabbed some Tech Plastic, a plastic/fiberglass stick I use in gunsmithing that you activate by kneading the two component parts together. I thought about JB Weld briefly, but wondered if it would be too hard or inflexible when the slider flexes, etc. So the finished repair to the slider looked like this:





I left it a little bit proud when moulding it into what remained of the front of the slider, held together by a last few bits and pieces. Thought about dressing it down to the original contours, but then decided to let the chain do that and use the wear as a bit of an indicator on what kind of contact I was getting.

So, bike back together, swingarm and pivot rod and linkage bits and pieces all cleaned up with mineral spirits and regreased with Belray Waterproof grease. Used up the inch of lowering in the rear shock while I was at it, something I've been meaning to do. I am such a shortass, my legs barely reach my feet.

Sidebar Note: HighFive isn't kidding when he says that plastic matrix the needle bearings sit in is fragile - I tore some bits and pieces out just rubbing them back and forth with a gloved finger while cleaning with mineral spirits. Not picking at them with a fingernail like HighFive did. Wife had to come out and pry me off the garage ceiling with the crowbar yet again, etc. I mean, they damage REAL EASY - almost effortlessly. Nothing about that in the Service Manual...

Like HighFive, I put the bits back as best I could and hope the grease, the remaining matrix around the damaged parts, and the fit will keep all them needles where they're supposed to be. If not....

Loaded some tools up and headed out to hit some potholes and washboard to see if there would be any more instantaneous damage to the slider. Set chain slack first. Hmmmm... bigger sprockies... want to get on the road. Decided to use Yamaha's current chain tension specs, but 6mm as minimum distance/max slack instead of 8mm. Figure with bigger sprockies, that should give me even more slack. Need to get on that and make sure I have enough slack later today or tomorrow morning.

Link to that day trip is here.

Anyways... the good news is that everything now works as expected. Stopped to check after 5 miles, 15 miles, and 30 miles. Just a bare amount of wear on the proud parts of the repair to the slider. 300 miles later, the wear doesn't feel any different. I suspect I could use this repaired slider for thousands more miles (but I'll swap it out once my new sliders get in and keep it for a spare and a memory).

Other notes related to the repair (aside from confirming HighFive's warning).

First, I really, really like the 14/49 setup. Might be my imagination, but the drive feels a bit smoother than the stock 13/43 I've used to date. It definitely ISN'T more vibey. And the power is much more usable over the entire transmission range. I don't notice much difference in 1st as little of my riding makes use of first gear grunt. But where before I found 6th (and often 5th) useful only for low rev slab motoring with insufficient power to even pull a hill or make a smooth pass, now I find them much stronger and more useful on the highway. For true 50/50 dual sporting, I think 14/49 is pretty close to perfection. Maybe 14/48 - if I could discern a difference.

Second, mileage. Just before I put the bike away last year, I posted Hey! Where did my mileage go?. Well, it didn't come back this spring despite all the theories, and I hadn't had the time to try sorting it out after trying the usual suspects. With the rock out of the chain guide, my 50/50 dual sport ride up Redding Creek netted me 85mpg Imperial/71mpg US. Which took care of that question. How much had to do with the rock and how much with the worn (but NOT worn out) sprockies and chain? Hard to say. On the one hand, given how fast my new chain slider got eaten, I would think I got lucky because I caught it before it ate right through the swingarm in a number of days. On the other hand, perhaps the majority of the wear happened immediately when that rock was biggest, and then decreased as the rock got worn down by the chain. Until it wore on the chain enough that it went suddenly, significantly, slack.

But, in either case, my mileage is back as well. I did a steady 60mph run until the fuel light came on, ended up refueling at exactly 100 miles. Worked out to 66mpg Imperial/55mpg US. So losing the low rev, low grunt 6th gear will cost me a bit in high speed slab riding, but those higher gears are also more useful on the highway and for dual sport riding the entire gear box is much more useful.

Total cost of this little adventure: about $200 and three weeks of mostly being afoot so far. And a damaged swingarm that I really, really hope won't end up needing to be replaced.

Pan to Paul Harvey... And now you know... the rest of the story.

Won't help to identify the root factors in why some swingarms get eaten and some don't, however.

One..... Freaking... Rock. The Golden BB.

Jäger screwed with this post 07-13-2011 at 07:26 PM
Jäger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2011, 05:03 PM   #23283
RichardU
Let's Ride
 
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: Marietta, GA
Oddometer: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhd1223 View Post
It's a pain trying to set the adjusters while having to constantly push the wheel forward so it is actually up against the adjusters and then sight down for the alignment, so on, so forth. Perhaps someone has a recommendation?
First, I always confirm that my frame is true like this: use a micrometer to set the length of the adjustment screws exactly the same on both sides. Then use a chain alignment tool (or eyeball if you trust yourself) to confirm that sprockets are aligned. After that, unless you tweak the frame, you can simply set the adjustment screws to the same length and you're done.

As for snugging the axle blocks up against the adjustment screws, try this with your rear wheel off the ground. Place a screwdriver shaft perpendicular to the rear sprocket into the hollow between two teeth, in an area where the chain doesn't touch. Rotate the wheel so that those teeth are now under the chain. The width of the screwdriver shaft will push the chain out, forcing the wheel forward and the axle blocks will be snug against the adjustment screws. Tighten the axle bolt, rotate the wheel forward and remove the screwdriver. Takes a lot of words to describe, but only a second to do.
RichardU is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2011, 05:11 PM   #23284
RichardU
Let's Ride
 
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: Marietta, GA
Oddometer: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
So... the rest of the story...
Thanks for the great story. Could be very helpful to someone. I wouldn't worry about your swingarm. Looks like you made a good repair.
RichardU is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2011, 05:33 PM   #23285
Attrition
Adventurer
 
Attrition's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Oddometer: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
We started out with this when I suddenly discovered my chain was busily eating my swingarm like a fat kid eats potato chips: http://advrider.com/forums/showthrea...3#post16204213

Sidebar Note: HighFive isn't kidding when he says that plastic matrix the needle bearings sit in is fragile - I tore some bits and pieces out just rubbing them back and forth with a gloved finger while cleaning with mineral spirits. Not picking at them with a fingernail like HighFive did. Wife had to come out and pry me off the garage ceiling with the crowbar once again, etc. I mean, they damage REAL EASY - almost effortlessly. Nothing about that in the Service Manual...

Like HighFive, I put the bits back as best I could and hope the grease, the remaining matrix around the damaged parts, and the fit will keep all them needles where they're supposed to be. If not....
That plastic matrix looks like Microporous polymeric lubricants (MPL).

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/...ric-lubricants

From the above link:

The microporous polymer acts like a sponge releasing and absorbing the oil. The oil is released from the polymer through capillary action to its surface and is transferred to any surface it contacts to provide the necessary lubrication. As the quantity of oil on the surface decreases, the MPL releases more oil. If excess oil becomes present, it is reabsorbed by the porous polymer.

While MPLs generally resist contamination better than greased bearings, this does not make the bearing waterproof and will not prevent corrosion of the bearing. Direct contact with solvents, cleaners and/or acids is not recommended. Repeated exposure will deplete the oil from MPLs, making them less effective.


The following link covers how to clean the MPL and the complete removal if needs be.

http://www.thumperfaq.com/swingarm.htm
Attrition is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2011, 07:49 PM   #23286
bash3r
I ain't no DingWeed
 
bash3r's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Wentzville, MO
Oddometer: 1,708
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougZ73 View Post
Basher: You still need shock setting demo vid??

I may be able to use to my droid to make a quick one either tonight or tomorrow.
Yes.. that would be great!
__________________
08' Yamaha WR250R
09' Yamaha WR250F
14' BMW F800GSA

ADV Gear | 3 Step Hideaway |Campground POIs
bash3r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2011, 08:12 PM   #23287
Krabill
Beastly Adventurer
 
Krabill's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: Tulsa, OK
Oddometer: 4,717
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhd1223 View Post

It's nice when the adjusters are actually connected to what holds the axle so it doesn't just slip around. It's a pain trying to set the adjusters while having to constantly push the wheel forward so it is actually up against the adjusters and then sight down for the alignment, so on, so forth. Perhaps someone has a recommendation?
Putting a little tension on the axle nut will keep the rear wheel from sliding around while you're adjusting the blocks. It doesn't take much, but with the nut a "little" tight, the adjustment screws will still slide the axle back without having to hold the rear wheel up against them.
__________________
Loud Sucks!
www.wrrdualsport.com
www.designatedvaping.com <- for all your electronic cigarette needs
Krabill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2011, 08:27 PM   #23288
bash3r
I ain't no DingWeed
 
bash3r's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Wentzville, MO
Oddometer: 1,708
My Guard Seal

I had to go out to the garage and check my guard seal, aka chain slider. I've been running 13/47 with 110 chain for about 7,600 miles and I have little wear on my guard. Been through two sets of tires and ride a lot of different terrain.. did close to 2,000 miles on our Idaho trip last year... so for what its worth.. I'm pretty happy with the wear I'm seeing with my setup.. Good luck Jager.. don't fret about it.. just ride buddy

Throwing in this photo just for some eye candy.. this was a rough section of our route, steep grade up and then back down the other side.. it was a blast! The road you see between the trees on the right is were we came from..



__________________
08' Yamaha WR250R
09' Yamaha WR250F
14' BMW F800GSA

ADV Gear | 3 Step Hideaway |Campground POIs
bash3r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2011, 09:06 PM   #23289
duanew1
In my Pajama pants
 
duanew1's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2008
Location: Huntsville, AL
Oddometer: 749
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
Sidebar Note: HighFive isn't kidding when he says that plastic matrix the needle bearings sit in is fragile - I tore some bits and pieces out just rubbing them back and forth with a gloved finger while cleaning with mineral spirits. Not picking at them with a fingernail like HighFive did. Wife had to come out and pry me off the garage ceiling with the crowbar yet again, etc. I mean, they damage REAL EASY - almost effortlessly. Nothing about that in the Service Manual...
I thought you were wrong about this so I had to go and look it up. You are right that he said that.

http://advrider.com/forums/showpost....postcount=4490

I did mine the other day and I ripped out all of the so called matrix and pulled out the needle bearings that was shown in one of his pics of the other piece. That stuff does not look like a plastic matrix at all. It looks like the dried up clay base that grease is made up of. It did break easily and came out almost glued to some of the needle bearings. I got that crap out of there and replaced it with fresh grease. I might be able to dig it out of the garbage can and take a pic of it.
__________________
Bikes I own
2008 Yamaha WR250R
1992 Yamaha XT225
2008 SYM HD200
duanew1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2011, 09:09 PM   #23290
bhd1223
Gnarly Adventurer
 
bhd1223's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2009
Location: CT
Oddometer: 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krabill View Post
Putting a little tension on the axle nut will keep the rear wheel from sliding around while you're adjusting the blocks. It doesn't take much, but with the nut a "little" tight, the adjustment screws will still slide the axle back without having to hold the rear wheel up against them.
Thanks for the advice RichardU and Krabill. I'll be sure to try both methods in the future.

I went for a short ride with it all buttoned up and it didn't feel too bad but I did notice a little bit of a snatchy feeling at times when letting out the clutch. I suspect that is from the looseness. I guess it could be from the lower gearing though. It's sure easy to just clutch it forward now with the 13/47 over the stock 13/43. I can't imagine what even lower gearing would feel like. I wish I had a tach to see what kind of revs I'm running.

Edit: Not worried about the chain tension anymore. Just read about the "updated method" put out by Yamaha. Anyways, with the bike on the sidestand and pushing up with enough force that the chain was taught, felt like excessive force would be required to make it tighter, I am at ~12mm from the swingarm, maybe a little bit less. It's late and I'm tired so I wasn't too worried when it looked about 1cm of clearance from the top of the chain to the bottom of the swingarm at the middle of the tire pressure sticker. I'm calling it good to go and will take it for a longer ride tomorrow to see how it's working in the higher gears.
__________________
WR250R - perhaps the ideal motorcycle for myself
Throw in a passenger and I'm unsure of what I'd consider ideal. Maybe a Multi?
I am now for sure sold on the Dual Sport style bike.
Keeping the Vulcan for now. The ladies seem to love it.

bhd1223 screwed with this post 07-13-2011 at 09:43 PM
bhd1223 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2011, 09:55 PM   #23291
HardWorkingDog
Harvey Mushman
 
HardWorkingDog's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Walnut Crick, Cal.
Oddometer: 1,702
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardU View Post
...As for snugging the axle blocks up against the adjustment screws, try this with your rear wheel off the ground. Place a screwdriver shaft perpendicular to the rear sprocket into the hollow between two teeth, in an area where the chain doesn't touch. Rotate the wheel so that those teeth are now under the chain. The width of the screwdriver shaft will push the chain out, forcing the wheel forward and the axle blocks will be snug against the adjustment screws...
A similar technique I use is to just squeeze the top & bottom chain runs with your left hand, forcing the chain towards the swingarm. This snugs the axle forward and you can then tighten the axle bolt with your right hand.
__________________
"Coffee first..."

Next Trip: Divide & Conquer...


"it's a dog's life.............and I love it"
HardWorkingDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2011, 11:25 PM   #23292
Jäger
Osons
 
Jäger's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2009
Location: NW MT/SE BC
Oddometer: 790
Or, on this bike, just give the back of the tire a good solid thump. Don't take much.
Jäger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2011, 12:12 AM   #23293
Jäger
Osons
 
Jäger's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2009
Location: NW MT/SE BC
Oddometer: 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Attrition View Post
That plastic matrix looks like Microporous polymeric lubricants (MPL).

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/...ric-lubricants
That's interesting.

Quote:
The following link covers how to clean the MPL and the complete removal if needs be.

http://www.thumperfaq.com/swingarm.htm
Well, I'll give Yamaha the benefit of the doubt and leave the MPL in place for now at least. I do wish I hadn't got after it with solvent to clean it, though... oh well. Also would prefer I had thrown out the few pieces torn loose, but I assumed the needles needed those chunkies for support.

I think what I did was fairly MPL friendly. As there is only partial rotation there, worked the bearings around quite a bit after I had really slathered the Bel-Ray in there. Really worked it in with a finger while turning the bearing at the same time, thinking that would help the needles to move some of the grease inside the space between the needles and the matrix, etc and so forth. Hopefully that was about right, because I would never go after those with as much pressure as I did to begin with.

Lessons learned...
Jäger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2011, 02:36 AM   #23294
Dracothius
Berserker
 
Dracothius's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2009
Location: Florida(sandbox)
Oddometer: 229
So I've got a few questions regarding the WR. Can it handle 50k, if so can it handle 100k(miles)? How is it's subframe? Can it handle being fully loaded? Can it handle a passenger on the road and on limestone roads? NO this is not my main use for the bike but I need it to be able to do it. I do plan on riding it quite a bit and carrying my wife on the bike every so often. It seems like a really nice bike but if it can't handle these requirements I would have to go bigger. Thanks, just looking for info on the bike and seeing if it could fill the role I need it to fill.
Dracothius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2011, 03:53 AM   #23295
Mr. Fisherman
PROUD 2B Riff Raff!
 
Mr. Fisherman's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2006
Location: Drinking from the Stanley Cup!
Oddometer: 10,651
Quote:
Originally Posted by malibu_dan View Post
Here's a teaser to my next project...



Your gonna love it... but since I put mine on nobody comments on my pics
Mr. Fisherman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 12:15 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014