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Old 06-02-2008, 08:38 AM   #31
Wannabeeuro
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I think keeping it simple is key for less experienced riders. A 1-10 rating to start.
Next would jut be the length.

Following the initial rating could be a secondary rating of the most difficult obstacle with a symbol like water, steep hill climb, or babyheads for miles, ( ( can already visualize a great symbol for that) )

I guess the other think is how is the trail identified? By Name, GPS coordinates, region...

Ironbrewer and I were talking about favorite secret single track on Saturday. We were both describing the same trail without knowing it until we got there.. We had a different name for the same place and both remembered a different most difficult obstacle.
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Old 06-02-2008, 03:30 PM   #32
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Then you have the OHV rating system that most are familiar with, so making it distinctive from that already impleted system can be confusing for most riders.

Keeping it dependent on pilot operated versus for example a rock climber or Kayaker makes this type of rating system distinctive to the sport.
I like the way this 4X4 system is outlined,
http://www.expeditionswest.com/resou...ail_rating.htm
It's simple and with the use of some photo's to distinguish a visual of dificulty.

Perhaps a color coded system with added markings??
IE; Green is used for easier trails to ride but green can turn into blue fairly quickly just by adding rocks, loose sand etc, things that can make a novice dirt rider aprehensive, so perhaps a green with an X to indicate the change in terrain and or added difficulty..

Just thinking out loud here and hoping to add fuel to the fire.
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Old 06-03-2008, 12:08 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMartin
Hi,

I agree that narrative descriptions are great. Having an agreed upon "language" or rating system to go along with narrative could make it less subjective.

Sections
Any section without a bailout point should be covered by a single rating that describes the worst of it. Any section with bailout points would benifit from ratings for each sub-section.

Three draft factors: terrain, width, navigability.

Terrain
T6--Requires supplemental assistance, e.g. block and tackle or extra help to steady or lift the bike into a boat.
T5--Difficult, expert off-road skills required
T4--Medium, average off-road skills required
T3--Mild, doable by someone new to dirt riding
T2--Firm, graded dirt (potentially slippery when wet)
T1--Pavement

Width
W3--Extreme, e.g. single track too narrow for a GS with boxes
W2--Medium, need to pay attention
W1--Unrestricted

Navigability
N5--Extreme likelihood of getting lost without a guide; spotty GPS coverage
N4--Confusing even with GPS
N3--Fine with GPS or maps
N2--Fine with written directions
N1--No brainer

Jay
that sounds pretty good
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Old 06-05-2008, 09:07 AM   #34
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This is cool, and something I have been thinking of in my "I wish I was riding" moments. And being at work, this is one of those times. Without getting too wordy, this is what I came up with. I think it needs to be simple, and somehow show how much of any given route is a certain difficulty. I could be wrong here, but I think if I show an example, it gives us something to discuss in semi-real world terms.

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Old 06-13-2008, 09:12 PM   #35
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The example given in the previous post with only 5 classes and 3 exposure length is quite good in my opinion. Simple to understand and simple to classify. But the idea to classify can be quite difficult, to which class each individual will put a segment will depend on his or her ability. There needs to be some kind of measurement, a consistent measurement of the track.

As a vibration engineer I tend to think that way. Perform an acceleration measurement along a track and obtain the frequency response of the track by using fourier transform or some sort of power density function, the higher the function, the higher we can attribute the exposure. High amount of vibration at the bike's natural frequency will indicate drops and impacts.

The idea behind is to perform consistent measurements, whatever they may be. That is how road roughness are measured by the transportation ministry. We can apply a similar type of standard to classify our trails. Can't rely on riders' opinions like the main post mentionned.
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Old 06-18-2008, 05:30 AM   #36
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Question I hate to be a nay sayer

I think the problem is not so much about the trails but about the varying abilitys of us as riders.

Let me give an example.

If someone asks me "Steve how good are you at cross country riding?"

What am I meant to say?

"Err... compared to who....David Knight, I'm usesless compared to him, but I'm really good compared to my mum who can't ride at all"

I sometimes get accused of seeing things in a very black and white way and I'm always open to being corrected.

Perhaps it could work on a very basic level of EASY, MEDIUM or HARD.
but I bet there would still be riders who struggled with easy.

I've seen BMW GS riders who must have thought that buying all the gear was in some way related to riding off hardpack, some of these guys can't even use the main stand. Some look really wobbly on the road.

I dunno. I think it's a great idea Ned. Maybee someone can make it work.

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Old 06-19-2008, 11:58 PM   #37
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Here is the problem with most of these replies...

They include the rider.

If you take the rider out of the equation and let everybody make their own decisions based on terrain, we would all be better off.

I propose we (ADVriders) adopt the trail rating system proposed by TrekNow.com

This is material from TrekNow.com:
-------------------------------------
Trail Technical Ratings:
1 - Graded dirt road. Dry, or less than 3" water crossing depth. Gentle grades. 2WD under all conditions except snow. No width problems, two vehicles wide.
2 - Dirt road. Dry, or less than 3" water crossing depth. Some ruts. Slight grades, up to 10 degrees. 2WD under most conditions. Rain or snow may make 4WD necessary. Usually one and a half to two vehicles wide.
3 - Dirt road. Rutted, washes, or gulches. Water crossings up to 6" depth. Passable mud. Grades up to 10 degrees. Small rocks or holes. 4WD recommended but 2WD possible under good conditions and with adequate ground clearance and skill. No width problems for any normal vehicle. Vehicle passing spots frequently available if less than two vehicles wide.
4 - Rutted and/or rocky road. No shelves but rocks to 9". Water crossings usually less than hub deep. Passable mud. Grades moderate, up to 15 degrees. Side hill moderate up to 15 degrees. 4WD under most conditions. No width problems, vehicle passing spots frequently available if less than two vehicles wide.
5 - Rutted and/or rocky road. No shelves. Rocks up to 12" and water crossings up to 12" with possible currents. Passable mud. Moderate grades to 15 degrees. 6" holes. Side hill to 20 degrees. 4WD required. No width problems.
6 - Quite rocky or deep ruts. Rocks to 12" and frequent. Water crossings may exceed hub depth with strong currents. Shelves to 6". Mud may require checking before proceeding. Moderate grades to 20 degrees. Sidehill may approach 30 degrees. 4WD necessary and second attempts may be required with stock vehicles. Caution may be required with wider vehicles.
7 - Rocks frequent and large, 12" and may exceed hub height. Holes frequent or deep (12"). Shelves to 9". Mud 8" deep and may be present on uphill sections. Grades to 25 degrees and sidehill to 30 degrees. Water crossings to 18" and may have strong currents. 1-1/2 vehicles wide. 4WD required. Driver experience helpful.
8 - Heavy rock and/or severe ruts. Rocks exceeding hub height frequent. Shelves to 12". Deep mud or uphill mud sections. Steep grades to 25 degrees and can be loose or rocky. Water crossings may exceed 30" in depth. Side hill to 30 degrees. One vehicle wide. Body damage possible. Experience needed. Vehicle Modifications helpful.
9 - Severe rock over 15". Frequent deep holes over 15". Shelves over 15". Mud bog conditions (long, deep, no form bottom). Over 30" water crossings with strong currents. Steep grades over 30 degrees. Sidehill over 30 degrees. May not be passable by stock vehicles. Experience essential. Body damage, mechanical breakdown, rollover probable. Extreme caution required.
10 - Severe conditions. Extreme caution recommended. Impassable by stock vehicles. Winching required. Trail building necessary. May be impassable. Impassable under anything but ideal conditions. Vehicle damage probable. Personal injury possible. Extreme caution necessary.
---------------------------------

It is obviously written with off-road 4x4s in mind, but the terrain descriptions are what is important. Trail width is less of a consideration for us, but grades, surfaces and water tolerance are important.

I, for example, would take my GS on a 5 if I was feeling ballsy, but a 3 or 4 would be more within my comfort zone.

It would be great if we could get an agreed upon set of ratings so all of our ride reports could have a common reference and a sticky could be posted in all GPS and Ride related sections.

Just my thoughts.
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Old 06-23-2008, 01:49 PM   #38
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Thoughts on existing 4x4 systems

My only problem with the existing 4x4 system is they don't talk about the time you would be exposed to certain terrain, or maybe they do in another system. But long story short, I know many riders here will muscle their bikes over just about anything for a certain period of time.

Actually I may be over thinking it. Maybe time is just something mentioned, such as, I went and did the "whatever" loop, and it was generally a 3 with one section that was a 5, but it was only 50 feet or so.

If we use this system, and I'm all for leveraging something someone else has put the thought into. We just need to change the words 2wd and 4wd to be more representative to our world.

Maybe like this:
2WD = Dual Sport Street Oriented Tires
4WD = Dual Sport Off-Road Oriented Tires

Or just leave it (2wd/4wd) out entirely.
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Old 06-23-2008, 08:57 PM   #39
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I like bonedale's example in post #35 because it's simple.

I also picture a review system like many e-commerce sites where people who have ridden the trail can write a review of the rating and add their personal perspective of the trail. This would only work if we then knew some information about the reviewer and conditions when they rode the trail like; years riding dirt, age, bike used, elapsed time on trail, time of year ridden, size of group, weather, etc...

I think the most important part of the rating will be the trail description. Each review would add a new perspective to that description making it that much more valuable.

thoughts?
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Old 07-07-2008, 02:32 AM   #40
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I agree that a simpler system like Bonedale's Post #35 would work best. The system must focus on describing the physical elements of the trail, and how weather might influence them. We really can't rely on any anecdotes about how a certain person on a certain bike had no problems. Bikes are too variable, (does your KLR 650 have factory DS tires, or full-on knobs?) and the variability in riders is even more extreme.

Some element of a narrative dessription will be needed, along with the general trail rating code. For instance, I'm thinking how I would describe one of my favorite roads in the nearby forest. Let's try it:

Forest Road # XXXa

Class IIIa - This eight mile long route is an unimproved two-track dirt road following the Middle Fork of the Little Laramie River to the headwaters above tree-line. The road is generally impassable from late October until mid-June, due to snowpack.

Lower Section - The four mile long lower section of the road is a moderately-sloping dirt road with a single stream crossing on a minor tributary, with a well-packed gravel stream bottom, and up to eight inches of clean-running water during high run-off in the spring. This section passes through mixed old-growth pine/spruce/aspen forest with frequent open park-like areas along the river.

Central Section - The gently-sloping central section includes 2 miles of continuous deep ruts which often contain standing water and muddy bottoms during most of the year. Frequent mud holes cover the entire road width. Ruts are deep and narrow enough to interfere with opposed-twin engines, and frequent rocky sides on the ruts require extreme caution in choosing a safe line to avoid engine damage. Mudholes and ruts typically contain six inches of standing, murky water with up to six inches of soft mud and large rocks hidden underneath.

Upper Section - The upper two miles are located above tree-line on Libby Flats, and contain occaisional shallow ruts and short muddy sections. The main obstacle in this section icludes two streambed crossings of approximately 100 yards each, consisting of rounded glacial boulders (baby heads). While the streams are nearly always dry during periods when this road is open, riders should be aware that the boulders are extremely slick when wet. The upper section is often windy, and one should expect to experience afternoon snow squalls at this elevation (11,000'+) even in mid summer.

Access: From U.S. Highway 130, riders can access the lower end of this road via F.R. 307 (an improved gravel road with frequent large rocks and some exposed bedrock on the surface). The upper end of the road intersects Highway 130. The nearest fuel and food is found in Centennial, Wyoming, nine miles east from the upper end of the road.

OK, having read that desription, can you decide whether you want to ride the road, given your bike and your skill level? Would you want to take a n00b buddy? What else do you want to know? (the road is real, I just don't remember the exact road # at the moment.)
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Old 07-10-2008, 07:48 PM   #41
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I really like the idea of having a uniform trail rating system.
I was thinking about a local riding area trying to compare the descriptions of suggested rating sytems and how I would describe each trail.

And then I thought about how experience on a certain trail might change the way you look at it. Do you think comparing the first time you ride a trail to the 100th time might change the way you describe it? What was thrilling the first time might be somewhat dull now.

The place I'm talking about is Uwharrie NF in North Carolina and they have the trails marked from easy to extremely difficult...similar to snow skiing areas.

There is one trail there (Daniel trail) and it is listed as an extremely difficult trail and that is because there is one monster hillclimb, the rest of the trail is a cake walk. This kinda psyched me out and I was unsure about taking my 650L on this trail alone.....well I couldn't let one little hill stop me so I tried it.

My first trip up was "interesting" and I made it with no issues...and now I don't think twice about riding that trail and I would consider it a moderate trail. But thats because I know which lines to take and what ones to avoid.
If I took different lines it would be all but impossible....


How could info like this be described in the rating system?


And a +1 on the weather info...even the easy trails at Uwharrie become very difficult when it rains.
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Old 07-21-2008, 05:09 PM   #42
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Trails are dynamic. Sand in the desert is dynamic too.
Rocks on mountains more or less stay the same. Rivers, depending on time of year and rain run off, are also predictable and can be viewed and gauged for ferocity.

Some trails are pretty consistent, but some can change from weather, over use or lack of maintenance. Ever ridden your favorite enduro trail right after a National has come through? Hard to recognize it, no?

Baja is a good example of how sand tracks can change. Big wind can fill up the tracks with deep sand. Run 200 Buggies through at 100 mph and the sand is gone..... until the next big blow anyway.

Places with good rock based trails could be classed.
The USFS in California have a trail rating system for all legal trails.
1. Easiest (green label)
2. More difficult (blue label)
3. Most difficult (Black diamond or black label)

They've had this for about 20 years I guess. Works OK.

The other problem with classifying trials is that some trails can be 10 miles where a C or B rider do fine, but then you get this impossible
section that stops all but the A riders.

We've all seen this and been up against it. Portaging bikes up 12 foot step ups, five steps in a row, gets old. Mojave's rock canyons have some of these.

I think a good solution are guide services. Lots of group rides would be willing to pay a knowledgeable guide to show them the best routes and find "work arounds" for the less expert riders. (or old guys! )

Nothing like not being lost, not running out of fuel and getting to where you want to go in reasonable time. Guides can make this happen.

On my last Baja ride we plied our guide with Beer and Tequila and feed him well. Money well spent. No down time, never lost.

Just my .02 pesos.
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Old 07-22-2008, 06:20 AM   #43
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I didnt read through all the posts, but did anyone suggest this?

Expeditions West Trail Rating Guide

Rating:
Description
1
Improved / Graded Dirt Road: Passable by most standard vehicles, excluding vehicles with low hanging body panels, or are designed for on road sport driving with ultra low ride and tire section height .
1.5
Graded Dirt Road: Still passable by most 2wd vehicles, however caution is required and lower speeds may be necessary for vehicles with less clearance. Small rocks (less than 5) may be embedded in road surface. Sufficient room for passing on most of the road. Some steep grades possible. AWD required if road is wet or icy.
2
Formed Track: Not passable by standard passenger vehicles.High clearance preferred, AWD preferred. Steep grades present, larger rocks embedded in trail (less than 7). Some loose trail surfaces and shallow water crossings possible. A spotter may be required on the most challenging portions to prevent body damage on vehicles with less clearance. Sand and dry washes may challenge available traction requiring lower air pressure on some vehicles. Trail may be narrow and require backing to allow other vehicles to pass. (Example Trails: Temporal Gulch, AZ / Red Canyon, CA)
2.5
Rugged Track: Not suitable for 2wd vehicles, or low clearance cross over vehicles. AWD required, Low Range preferred. Rutted, crossed axle terrain possible, with loose, steep climbs required. Deep sand possible. Some rock crawling possible on loose rocks up to 8 in diameter. Some larger rocks may be present, possibly requiring a spotter to negotiate. Small ledges possible, with larger embedded rocks present. Water crossing to 12 possible. Loose surfaces will be present, with tight clearance, smaller margin for error, and the possibility of body damage. Within the capability of any high clearance stock SUV or truck. AWD cross-over vehicles will struggle and may suffer damage due to lack of low range gearing. (Example Trails: Chloride, AZ / Chiricahua's, AZ)
3.0
Formed Trail: High Clearance SUV or Truck required with low range gearing. Trail will be very rough and heavily eroded, with large, loose rocks present and steep, loose climbs requiring good traction and driver skill to negotiate. Wheel placement critical. Skid plates required, along with larger tires (31+) necessary to prevent damage. Deeper water and mud crossings possible. Parts of the trail may be entirely in a wash, with loose sand and large rocks present. Possibility of rock ledges, and severe crossed axle obstacles. Good suspension articulation required to maintain traction. Rear limited slip differential or traction control system recommended to limit trail and vehicle damage. (Example Trails: Chivo Falls, AZ / Calcite Mine, CA)
3.5
Rugged Trail: High Clearance SUV or Truck required, taller suspension and tires recommended. Few stock vehicles capable of completing the trail without damage. Very large rocks exceeding 12 present throughout trail requiring a spotter or heavily modified vehicle to traverse. Very loose and cambered climbs present, also heavily rutted requiring good suspension travel. Tall ledges present requiring good clearance or rocker panel protection. Little margin for error, and possibility of body damage. Tires must be 31+ with aggressive tread and strong sidewalls. Lower tire pressure, skid plates, and limited slip or traction control required to prevent vehicle or trail damage. Rear locking differential and 32+ tires recommended. (Trail examples: Rubicon Trail, CA / Martinez Canyon, AZ, etc.)
4.0
Challenging Trail: High clearance modified vehicle required. Not within the capability of a stock vehicle without damage. Trail likely in river or wash bottom with very large rocks present. Deep mud possible requiring aggressive tires and higher speeds. Water crossings in excess of 24 possible. Heavily rutted and crossed axle terrain present, with large ledges and very steep hills with embedded and loose rocks. Body protection required to prevent damage, with good skid plates and stronger (or spare) steering components necessary. Winching and extraction possible. 32 tires, rear locking differential and flexible suspension required. 33 tires and front locking differential recommended. (Trail Examples: Golden Spike, Moab Utah / Lower Woodpecker, AZ / Fordyce Creek, CA / Sledge Hammer, CA)
The Following Rating are outside of the scope of this web site
4.5
Extreme Trail: Heavily modified vehicle required.
Extreme rock crawling, with very large ledges present requiring winching for shorter wheelbase (SWB) vehicles. Body and drivetrain damage likely. Very cambered terrain may cause roll-over's. Water crossings may be hood high, and mud will be very deep and heavily rutted. Vehicles will require heavy modifications. 33+ tires required, along with front and rear locking differentials in upgraded axles. 35-37 tires recommended. Winch required on SWB vehicles. Roll cages or full metal roof required. Driver must be experienced. (Trail examples: Die Trying, CO / Axle Alley, AZ / Upper Helldorado, UT)
5.0
No Trail!: Custom vehicle, very experienced driver required. Competition level vehicles on insane terrain with frequent roll-over's and drivetrain damage. Full custom vehicles with massive axles, 37+ tires, cutting brakes, very low gears, 1 ton drivetrain, and custom chassis.


Important Terms
Definitions:
Road: Frequently graded and wide, with moderate grades and good traction surface. Bridges over water crossings. Typically a named road, backcountry byway, scenic byway, etc.
Track: Infrequently graded and will be narrow, with fewer places for passing. Less traffic and more rugged surface typically requires AWD and some clearance. Often leads to mines, camping areas, points of interest. Designated as numbered forest roads, two track, etc.
Trail: May never have been graded. Typically in wash and river bottoms on very rugged surfaces. Trails are driven mostly for recreation and to access remote scenic locations and primitive camping. Requires high clearance SUV or truck with low range gearing. May be a numbered trail (or adopted trail), and can be abandoned mine trails that have grown difficult with time. These trails are popular for their challenges, though many offer great scenery, abandoned mines, etc.
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Old 07-22-2008, 06:20 AM   #44
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And something similar....


Scenic Value Rating
This rating is of course very subjective, as beauty is often in the eye of the beholder. However, we always try to visit the most appealing locations, as we have a great love for photography and a great view! This is a basic overview:
1Not really worth the trip. Likely to be very barren (and not in a good way), or littered with trash and other human environmental damage.
2Better than staying home, but scenery is marginal, and does not yield great photographs or views
3A nice place, with decent vistas and either views of mountains, ocean, or other interesting features
4Beautiful views with striking features and likely to have major points of interest, green trees, lakes, and other natural displays of note.
5 Will leave you breathless, and your camera shaking in your hand. Very few places are given this rating, and are exceptionally special and memorable.
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Old 07-30-2008, 06:29 PM   #45
kYLEMtnCRUZr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMartin
Hi,

I agree that narrative descriptions are great. Having an agreed upon "language" or rating system to go along with narrative could make it less subjective.

Sections
Any section without a bailout point should be covered by a single rating that describes the worst of it. Any section with bailout points would benifit from ratings for each sub-section.

Three draft factors: terrain, width, navigability.

Terrain
T6--Requires supplemental assistance, e.g. block and tackle or extra help to steady or lift the bike into a boat.
T5--Difficult, expert off-road skills required
T4--Medium, average off-road skills required
T3--Mild, doable by someone new to dirt riding
T2--Firm, graded dirt (potentially slippery when wet)
T1--Pavement

Width
W3--Extreme, e.g. single track too narrow for a GS with boxes
W2--Medium, need to pay attention
W1--Unrestricted

Navigability
N5--Extreme likelihood of getting lost without a guide; spotty GPS coverage
N4--Confusing even with GPS
N3--Fine with GPS or maps
N2--Fine with written directions
N1--No brainer

Jay
Exactly what i was thinking, it cant just be a 1-5 scale to cover 3 diffeerent areas...

It has to be like a womans body 36-24-36 lol
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