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Old 06-19-2008, 04:37 AM   #91
Bueller
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Abe -

I'm curious. Do you spend any time doing track days?

If so, what tracks? What group do you run in? What lap times do you typically turn?
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Old 06-19-2008, 04:43 AM   #92
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No help for this one guys..
He obviously knows it all.


The motorcycling world revolves around his big thick head



As I said before, I buy my bikes based on how they RIDE
not how they READ…


Get your head out of the magazines and get your ass on a bike and ride some,
THEN buy the one that fits you and your riding style best..


I myself feel better buying something that has a bit of power in the 2000-4000 RPM range
where I spend 99.5% of my time.. Why would I buy something that has no power where I need it?
I don’t ride around town at 8000RPMs thanks..
I’ll take the torque, and the handling of the V-Twin as a bike to be ridden thanks,
if I was RACING, then of course I would pick something else, but there is more to a bike than a Dyno sheet..

Once you get a bit older, a bit wiser, and get it out of your system, maybe you’ll realize that..


Hell, this thing is much more powerful than your GSXR.. it must be super fun and the best bike made,
I bet you would LOVE to ride it to work every day, I think you got screwed

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Old 06-19-2008, 04:45 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bueller
Abe -

I'm curious. Do you spend any time doing track days?

If so, what tracks? What group do you run in? What lap times do you typically turn?
My guess is No, None, None, and 4min, but the dyno tells him he would be super quick
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Old 06-19-2008, 07:57 AM   #94
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the touring bike response confirms my suspicion that my point was lost...so i'll restate for the last time:

if ducati is going to dip their toe in the supersport pool, and ducatisti feel the need to cast aspersions on UJMs...why aren't they then subjected to the same evaluation?? what makes them so special as to escape ridicule for putting up piss-poor numbers and reliability...with a higher pricetag???? (sex, character, exclusivity doesn't win races or save corners is my point.)



they don't do what they say they'll do as well as their competition...and they do that for more money and more headaches.

marketing makes up for the cognitive dissonance that would otherwise nix the deal.

folks are always quick to point out trackday experience...but rarely draw a bright line from that to the point they are making. so please...relevant comments only with respect to that. i've got no trackday experience...but i'd like more bang for my buck when it comes to buying a motorcycle and i don't much care for sex appeal or exclusivity...just functionality. will it go like it's supposed to? how does it compare to other offerings? how much does it cost? will it break?

what if i never propose to push the limits of my bike....but i'd like a greater margin of error, or a little extra power in case....22s are great...but who wouldn't like a .45?

save the ad hom and let's argue the point. the most believable responses i've seen are the "i don't ride at the top of the rev range"...perhaps the japanese need to market a supersport twin...then what would the objection be?

"every squid has one" is not a valid argument...it's not motorcycle-related...it's a personal problem.

abe
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Old 06-19-2008, 08:16 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonsr
the touring bike response confirms my suspicion that my point was lost...so i'll restate for the last time:

if ducati is going to dip their toe in the supersport pool, and ducatisti feel the need to cast aspersions on UJMs...why aren't they then subjected to the same evaluation?? what makes them so special as to escape ridicule for putting up piss-poor numbers and reliability...with a higher pricetag???? (sex, character, exclusivity doesn't win races or save corners is my point.)



they don't do what they say they'll do as well as their competition...and they do that for more money and more headaches.

marketing makes up for the cognitive dissonance that would otherwise nix the deal.

folks are always quick to point out trackday experience...but rarely draw a bright line from that to the point they are making. so please...relevant comments only with respect to that. i've got no trackday experience...but i'd like more bang for my buck when it comes to buying a motorcycle and i don't much care for sex appeal or exclusivity...just functionality. will it go like it's supposed to? how does it compare to other offerings? how much does it cost? will it break?

what if i never propose to push the limits of my bike....but i'd like a greater margin of error, or a little extra power in case....22s are great...but who wouldn't like a .45?

save the ad hom and let's argue the point. the most believable responses i've seen are the "i don't ride at the top of the rev range"...perhaps the japanese need to market a supersport twin...then what would the objection be?

"every squid has one" is not a valid argument...it's not motorcycle-related...it's a personal problem.

abe
OK, I'm confused...
you yourselfsaid that you don't do trackdays,
so what do you care how the Ducati does in supersport?

Yes, the extra power if needed is nice, but if it's up so high in the RPM range who cares, yes a .45 is great, I own more than a few, but if there is only a handgun range within 500 miles of my house I'm not going to go out and get a 308 FN-FAL just because it can shoot farther, I'm going to buy what suits my situation best, I would get the .45 so I could use it..
I chose the V-twin (not a Duk though) because it has WAY more power where I spend most of my time..

IF I was buying a race bike, or spent any time on the track I would look at new options..

Yes a Top Fuel car is fun and it would be great to have that kind of power "if" you need it, but it would suck at part throttle crusing, and going into town for groceries..
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Old 06-19-2008, 08:18 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonsr
tbut i'd like more bang for my buck when it comes to buying a motorcycle and i don't much care for sex appeal or exclusivity...just functionality. will it go like it's supposed to? how does it compare to other offerings? how much does it cost? will it break?
The GSXR handily wins the performance bang-for-the-buck contest. No question. But some people base their motorcycle buying decisions on more than bang-for-the-buck. Buy the bike that gives you wood and don't begrudge someone else's decision just because it's different than yours.
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Old 06-19-2008, 08:20 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonsr
i've got no trackday experience... abe

So where do you ride your sportsbikes?

You're in D.C., the nearest decent twisties are West of the Blue Ridge.

If you're into dragracing or stunting, it's no wonder you don't "get it".

You should attend a trackday at Summit Point sometime. http://www.summitpoint-raceway.com/

These guys: http://www.sportbiketracktime.com/ and these guys: http://www.nesba.com/ do trackdays up at Summit Point.
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Old 06-19-2008, 08:21 AM   #98
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Damn you, with the edit while I am typing, lol..

I would have no problem with a Jap V-Twin sport bike,
I would like a Honda VFR if they still made them.
(That was a v twin if I remember right)

I'm just trying to point out that the dyno is not the final word
and if you do look at dyno charts, you should know that peak numbers is not everything either,
you need to look at the power in the RPM range you need it, and look at the average numbers.

Cars/bikes with the peak numbers don't always mean they are quicker..
you need to look at the whole curve
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Old 06-19-2008, 08:22 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry
\

The GSXR handily wins the performance bang-for-the-buck contest. No question. But some people base their motorcycle buying decisions on more than bang-for-the-buck. Buy the bike that gives you wood and don't begrudge someone else's decision just because it's different than yours.
Very well put
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Old 06-19-2008, 08:26 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue70
Damn you, with the edit while I am typing, lol..

I would have no problem with a Jap V-Twin sport bike,
I would like a Honda VFR if they still made them.
(That was a v twin if I remember right)

I'm just trying to point out that the dyno is not the final word
and if you do look at dyno charts, you should know that peak numbers is not everything either,
you need to look at the power in the RPM range you need it, and look at the average numbers.

Cars/bikes with the peak numbers don't always mean they are quicker..
you need to look at the whole curve
VFR= V4
VTR = V2

VFR's are nice rides either way
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Old 06-19-2008, 08:33 AM   #101
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Performance numbers don't really make that much difference to me and maybe a lot of others. Other than maybe top speed I am not a good enough rider to exploit the capabilities of any sportbike. If I you were to park a GSXR whate ever next to a Duc whatever I would probally choose the Duc only because I cannot stand all the graphics on the Jap. bikes. I do like the orange and black GSXR 1000 K7 tho

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Old 06-19-2008, 08:45 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonsr
ridicule for putting up piss-poor numbers
Piss-poor numbers? ~120rwhp from an ~850cc v-twin. Could you point me to the manufacturers offering more horsepower from their v-twins?


Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonsr
folks are always quick to point out trackday experience...but rarely draw a bright line from that to the point they are making. so please...relevant comments only with respect to that. i've got no trackday experience...
The bright line from the track day experience to the point was that if you had ever spent any time with your knee on the ground trying to cut a quicker lap time you'd realize how meaningless the numbers like peak horsepower and quarter mile times become. You'd also realize how far away you (and nearly every other street rider on the planet) are from ever reaching the limits of what a modern sport bike can do, which should adjust your idea of a "dog slow, zero ability" motorcycle. Agonizing over a sub-10hp deficit at 13k rpm without a road racing license or a big 'A' sticker on your bike is pure squid stuff.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonsr
what if i never propose to push the limits of my bike....but i'd like a greater margin of error, or a little extra power in case....22s are great...but who wouldn't like a .45?
Well, that would be quite odd given your "bang-for-the-buck" argument. Most guys argue bang-for-buck when they want more bang. If you never intend to use it, you just wanted more mental bang, or knowledge that bang existed. You could have purchased a GS500 and a poster of a GSX-R1000 spec sheet and saved yourself ~$5k. Aside from that, how does ~10hp at 13k rpm leave a greater margin for error?
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Old 06-19-2008, 09:11 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ndSPACE
VFR= V4
VTR = V2

VFR's are nice rides either way
Quite right.

I would like to add that if bostonsr ever gets to talk to the owner of an RC51, that he might ask that owner why he likes his bike, rather than, say, a CBR. Honda built both bikes, and each has the same general purpose.
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Old 06-19-2008, 09:52 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonsr
what if i never propose to push the limits of my bike....but i'd like a greater margin of error, or a little extra power in case....22s are great...but who wouldn't like a .45?
abe
Please post a pic of your odometer and rear tire so that I may finalize my decision to disregard every pointless word you have posted in this thread.

At that point, please proceed to the nearest clue retailer and purchase one, because the last 7 pages have clearly flown directly over your head.
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Old 06-19-2008, 12:10 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonsr
the touring bike response confirms my suspicion that my point was lost...so i'll restate for the last time:

if ducati is going to dip their toe in the supersport pool, and ducatisti feel the need to cast aspersions on UJMs...why aren't they then subjected to the same evaluation?? what makes them so special as to escape ridicule for putting up piss-poor numbers and reliability...with a higher pricetag???? (sex, character, exclusivity doesn't win races or save corners is my point.)



they don't do what they say they'll do as well as their competition...and they do that for more money and more headaches.

marketing makes up for the cognitive dissonance that would otherwise nix the deal.

folks are always quick to point out trackday experience...but rarely draw a bright line from that to the point they are making. so please...relevant comments only with respect to that. i've got no trackday experience...but i'd like more bang for my buck when it comes to buying a motorcycle and i don't much care for sex appeal or exclusivity...just functionality. will it go like it's supposed to? how does it compare to other offerings? how much does it cost? will it break?

what if i never propose to push the limits of my bike....but i'd like a greater margin of error, or a little extra power in case....22s are great...but who wouldn't like a .45?

save the ad hom and let's argue the point. the most believable responses i've seen are the "i don't ride at the top of the rev range"...perhaps the japanese need to market a supersport twin...then what would the objection be?

"every squid has one" is not a valid argument...it's not motorcycle-related...it's a personal problem.

abe
Abe, I really don't mean to offend but I now understand your position better. It is a position of ignorance. That's not a slam, and I won't ridicule you like some others might. I'll only explain my position by saying this - you just don't know.

The very marketing hype you claim to be such an important part of the Ducati sales process is exactly what got you on your GSXR. You read about the bike, took whoever wrote the text at their word, and made a purchase. Well I got some news for you. Peak horsepower doesn't matter. Power curve is everything. I proved this over and over during a day at Mid-Ohio with a Buell Firebolt that produced only 103 horsepower at the crank. I was riding with bikes that made 20 more horsepower, but the power delivery of the Buell was so much better suited to the environment that I was able to leave them during and/or coming out of almost every curve. There was a dude on a Honda cbr 600 with a pipe and fuel management who kept trying to pass me. When we hit the long straights he could pull away from me. But when we were coming out of a curve and we got on the throttle hard I would always roll away for a bit before his bike found the meat of its powerband. I found out later on he'd been irritated most of the day that he couldn't get around me. After all, I was riding a Buell with "only 103 horsepower". I'm not sure why he thought we were in a race, but late in the day he finally passed me going into a turn by trying to out-brake me. He then found out he was too hot for the turn and promptly low-sided. I wonder if afterwards he thought it was worth it?

Have you looked at the torque curve of a Ducati? Have you compared it to your GSXR? Didn't think so.

The GSXR is a great bike. You percieve yourself to have gotten more bang for the buck in purchasing it. But since I am aware of the perspective you are coming from, let me make a different suggestion - had you purchased an SV650 and spent the difference between it and your GSXR on some tack time and instruction the SV would be the faster bike with you behind the handlebars. Now that's bang for the buck and money well spent.

It is pointless for you to continue because until you spend enough time on the track getting your ass whipped by the guy on the beat up twin with half of the horsepower you aren't going to get it. Until you get some real instruction and figure out just how much of your GSXR you are UNABLE to use you won't get it. In one sentence you are telling us you wanted the best bang for the buck and based on the magazines and numbers you bought it, and in the next sentence you are telling us you don't have any clue of how to use it.

Your gun analogy doesn't hold up. I carry a .45 because if I HAVE to shoot someone to save my life I want to drop them. a .45 has a decent chance of doing exactly that with only one shot. A .22 runs the risk of not being able to do that under a variety of circumstances. But I can say I would absolutely NOT carry a .45 if I didn't even know how to shoot a .22. And since the .45 is what I carry it is also what I go practice with. You should do the same with your bike, which in this analogy I suppose is the equivalent of a .38

I would urge you to get some instruction and put in some time at the track. Become a better rider. Have a look at how a Ducati or anything else performs out there side by side. Go figure out in the real world how much peak horsepower really doesn't matter, and how much a wide, flat powerband really does matter. Maybe that will answer the question and change your mind.
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