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Old 07-07-2008, 02:00 AM   #16
uk_mouse
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamanya
I don't know why so many older engines are noisy and none of the newer ones are?
I heard thatthe oil pump was upgraded in later engines - a bit more oil pressure would reduce the clatter somewhat.
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Old 07-07-2008, 07:40 AM   #17
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Laugh I like my "thrashing machine" '03 ... it has character

The oil pump is the same part for all of the years, butt the bypass control piston was changed in the very early days (engines prior to #00773).

The split balancer/camchain drive gears were added on the 2005 models with a redesigned balancer. I suspect the spilt gears were an effort to quiet the engine to help pass ever more stringent ECU noise tests, butt undoubtedly did result in a less "mechanical" sounding LC8 engine.

Over the years, "improvements" in several areas were added that resulted in even less "noisey" engines (and bikes) overall.
Soon, with the addition of rubber coated trans gears and a driveshaft upgrade, the big Katoom will be as silent as the Bee-Hemm-Doobya
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DISCLAIMER: All observations made in this post are mine and based solely on my own anecdotal experiences, and may contain large doses of facetiousness. YMMV, of course. You are "on your own", and I take no responsibility if someone tries anything in this post and gets into trouble with the law, damages their person or property, or goes blind. Take everything you read or hear "anywhere" butt especially on the Web with a large dose of salt.


cpmodem screwed with this post 07-07-2008 at 09:32 AM
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Old 07-07-2008, 09:07 AM   #18
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Thanks Kamanya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CP. Is this "HOW" material or what???

Again, Thanks Kamanya. Its nice to read a thread like that. Good attitude, and knowlage.
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Old 07-07-2008, 09:23 AM   #19
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Thumb Most definitely HOW material

Quote:
Originally Posted by YOGOI
Thanks Kamanya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CP. Is this "HOW" material or what???

Again, Thanks Kamanya. Its nice to read a thread like that. Good attitude, and knowlage.
I'm all over it YOGOI
http://www.ktm950.info/how/Cam/camch...ise/noise.html

As usual, kamanya has done a bangup job of illustration and narrative
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DISCLAIMER: All observations made in this post are mine and based solely on my own anecdotal experiences, and may contain large doses of facetiousness. YMMV, of course. You are "on your own", and I take no responsibility if someone tries anything in this post and gets into trouble with the law, damages their person or property, or goes blind. Take everything you read or hear "anywhere" butt especially on the Web with a large dose of salt.

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Old 07-07-2008, 10:55 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamanya
I don't know why so many older engines are noisy and none of the newer ones are? They must have changed something. If you look at what is in the older and newer engines they use exaclty the same chains, tensioners and guides. What is diferent is what they call a "spreader gear" in place of the timing gear on the end of the balancer shaft on the clutch side. This must be what makes the difference. How, I don't know?
Kam,
I had similar experience to yours in late '06 on my freshly/comepletely rebuilt 950. A metallic "tinkle" from new motor after about 2 tanks of gas.

The balance weight was moving axially on the jackshaft and rubbing the stuff on the case just as you have shown. This movement allowed partial dis-engagement of the woodruff key that drives the balance weight. That lead to slop in the jackshaft keyway. Solution: replace the jackshaft, balance weight and associated detail parts.

In late '06 the new jackshaft showed up. It wouldn't fit because there had been a running change to the shaft that enlarged the bearing journal on the shaft a couple of mm. Called KTM tech. Find out that we need to order kit P/N's that entail new bearings.

Oh, and another part, a special shaft spacer that does not appear on any parts list or TSB (at least at that time). This spacer, about 2 or 3 mm thick, is what keeps the backside of the balance weight from striking the case and making the noise. It was supposed to ship out with every "new" jackshaft, but that didn't happen 'cause the jackshaft p/n's were still the same. There was no way KTM USA could keep track of the updated shafts w/spacer.

At the time, the revised "large journal" balance shaft had the same P/N as the old (60036073000) hence there was no way we could know that it was only interchangeable as a shaft/bearing/flyweight kit. Was very frustrating for the mechanic, as he really was/is good at his job. This was not his fault, nor the fault of KTM USA. The mechanic only knew of this because he recalled a "special spacer" being mentioned in one of the trainings his dealer had sent him to. No substitute for a good shop w/ a good mechanic who's paying attention & taking notes!

Once aware of this it went OK, but at the time none of this was written down from KTM, had to know who to call about exactly what. The only clue (after KTM tech chat) is different bearing p/n (book part 9 is now 60030024100) & different balance weight (60036074150). I have never seen a p/n for the shaft spacer behind the balance weight. This was part of a running factory change in '06, I believe.

I suspect that the part you refer to as "spreader gear" may have the spacer function built-in now, that would make sense, but I can't say for sure.

Perhaps older bikes with the "tinkle" could be fixed with a simple home made spacer behind the balance weight, assuming all the shaft/keyways/keys check out OK?

End of KTM history lesson for the day, lets go ride!
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Old 07-07-2008, 03:53 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HellsAlien

End of KTM history lesson for the day, lets go ride!
Very good info... "All". Thanks
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Old 07-07-2008, 10:49 PM   #22
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Balancer Cam Timing ??

Long Story

I have a 04 that spun a rod bearing due to water pump seal problem at 6000 miles.

The dealer rebuilt -replaced just what was wrong ( Warranty ) . When I went to pick it up the service manager started the bike up and I said to him. Hey the cam timing is off --The bike sounded different- I rode the bike and it seemed OK. I was confused. I am still riding it now 32000 miles and I still don,t think it is right. I checked the marks on the cam when I do a valve check and it looks OK. But I still think some thing is off one tooth.

Is their a chance to mess up the timing chain sync when rebuilding a 950 motor ?????

Thanks
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Old 07-08-2008, 12:37 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kkug
Is their a chance to mess up the timing chain sync when rebuilding a 950 motor ?????

Thanks
Certainly
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DISCLAIMER: All observations made in this post are mine and based solely on my own anecdotal experiences, and may contain large doses of facetiousness. YMMV, of course. You are "on your own", and I take no responsibility if someone tries anything in this post and gets into trouble with the law, damages their person or property, or goes blind. Take everything you read or hear "anywhere" butt especially on the Web with a large dose of salt.

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Old 07-08-2008, 07:52 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpmodem
The oil pump is the same part for all of the years,
That'll teach me to listen to KTM mechanics rather than OC inmates :)
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Old 08-19-2013, 09:14 PM   #25
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Knowing this is a 5 year old thread, I thought I'd start here with a question which may or may not be related to the balance shaft problem discussed here.

Is there a consensus that you can get slippage in the balancer shaft on a 990 from a backfire--or from rotating the motor clockwise instead of clockwise while timing cams or running/rotating with cam timing off 1 tooth.

Making a last minute valve adjustment on a new to me '07 990 with 30k miles, I believe I spaced it on cam timing and ended up a tooth off. In my haste to get ready for an Alaska trip, I may also have rotated the motor in a clockwise direction in timing the cams. I went back in and corrected the tooth off problem. Bike runs well enough but has a strange and inconsistent rattle which sounds like timing chain. Tensioners are in spec. Locking bolt used for all timing for both cylinders. Could the keyed balancer shaft gear have slipped, the spreader gear slipped or something else have happened to create a problem like this?

Thanks in advance for any help/info which can be provided.
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Old 08-21-2013, 02:46 PM   #26
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Damn! I was really hoping some of the experts from the early days of this thread would weigh in.

My questions relate to the 990. Specifically, can a guy damage something on the balance shaft by turning the motor clockwise and/or running a tooth off on one cylinder.

And, does the 990 "spreader" eliminate this potential or create something else to slip or reset?
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:20 PM   #27
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The quick answer to your question is 'no', the gears cannot skip or slip if the engine is turned in either direction while the cam chain tensioners are engaged or removed. They are two separate sub systems of a common drive assembly.

If the chain had skipped, then both the intake and exhaust would be off the same amount (provided that they were both installed correctly) for that cylinder.

It is technically possible that the chain can skip a tooth while the tensioner is disengaged, however I would say that the chain/guides would be at their service limit for this to happen. Aside from that, I just would not move the engine while the cams are installed AND the tensioners are removed.
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Old 08-22-2013, 03:30 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renogeorge View Post
Bike runs well enough but has a strange and inconsistent rattle which sounds like timing chain.
Can you describe this more? When does it do it? Does engine feel as strong as before?

H2W is right, it is impossible to have slippage on the shaft unless the woodruff keys are broken. If they did, I am sure you'd have some serious noise coming from your engine and it wouldn't run. Only the timing gear and the one balancer have the keys. The spreader gear doesn't have a woodruff key but is machined so that it can only go on in one way. It too, is pretty certainly not going anywhere.

(I've added two pictures of the fabled extended tensioner bolts to the original post.)
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Old 08-22-2013, 08:14 AM   #29
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I'm wondering if by the looks of the pictures of those balance cams there should of been a smiggen of metal flakes with each oil change somewhere , anything on the magnetic plug or in any filters?
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Old 08-22-2013, 01:43 PM   #30
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Thanks for the responses. The motor was never turned over without the tensioners installed. The tensioners themselves are in spec by the "clearance to the cylinder" method shown in the service manual. Is there any other check as to the hydraulic aspect of the tensioners?

Sounds are always hard to describe. I haven't mastered posting pictures. So posting an audio may be beyond my limited capabilities.

It is most noticeable in the lower rpm ranges 3500-5000. And then when lightly loaded/small throttle opening. It is particularly noticeable when throttling up--say from 3500 up to 5000 where it is more of a slow roll on. Noise varies with RPM, does not change based on gear selection or clutch engagement/disengagement. Seems louder with warmer engine.

I did change the oil from unknown viscosity/brand to 5/50 Rotella full synthethic. I will be changing to a 10/50 on the outside chance that the 5/50 oil is providing less pressure to the tensioners. Possible??

Thanks again for the help--very much appreciated
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