Crash in Destruction Bay, YT

[O.C.F.RIDER]

Originally Posted by redbaroness

Make that three bikes. I know of one other bike that it happened to, but the owner claims that it was his fault because he hit a rock too hard. Same kind of failure on his Dakar as sgk3.

My '95 & '96 KTM 300 MXC's, '99 Husaberg, '90 KDX 200 all had leading axle conventional forks and where I ride, all you do is hit rocks hard. This happening is totally unbelievable Sounds like a class action suit may be in order.
See Ya
Chris

[Tollster]

Originally Posted by O.C.F.RIDER

My '95 & '96 KTM 300 MXC's, '99 Husaberg, '90 KDX 200 all had leading axle conventional forks and where I ride, all you do is hit rocks hard. This happening is totally unbelievable Sounds like a class action suit may be in order.
See Ya
Chris

Dude, we all know there ain't rocks in Jerseeee!

[Reislust]

Wow, I have an 01 Dakar thats front end sees a lot of abuse, this is quite disturbing! I wish you guys a fast recovery! I'll keep posted to see what BMW has to say about this if anything...

[Nickywind]

Barroness, I'm glad to see you're OK, while simultaneously amazed at how many people have heard of something similar happening to other people. I just got my first bike ever - F650GS, so needless to say my interest is piqued. Just keep us informed on your situation - like so many other people have pointed out, a recall might be necessary. I for one would love to hear what BMW has to say about it - either way.

[cbxtc6]

Just thought I'd add this pic from Giddyupgirl's wreck a few years back.



A dog pulled in front of her on her F650 ('01), and she "had to lay her down", so to speak.

[kwh]

Originally Posted by cbxtc6

Just thought I'd add this pic from Giddyupgirl's wreck a few years back.



A dog pulled in front of her on her F650 ('01), and she "had to lay her down", so to speak.

Is that ANOTHER one?

This is quite a horrifying catalogue, isn't it...

[JimVonBaden]

Red,

I was sorry to hear of your accident, and glad you were not more hurt.

I would think you can try a lawsuit, but the odds of winning are not very good. Since the bike was previously wrecked, it would be very easy for BMW to use that as the cause of the "defect".

I am not saying that it is not a real defect, but I know how lawyers and the law works. That there were others, even if fully documented that they all happened just going down the road, wont significantly effect your outcome unless you can prove this has happend just because of a defect and not a wreck. Several of the others labeled with the same "defect" were also wrecked in such a way, either during the accident, or from previous accidents, that it would be very hard to prove.

I hope BMW steps up to the plate, but I would not count on it. Despite the outpouring of sympathy here, if the issues with the FD and EWS were not enough to get BMW forced into a recall on hundreds of R1200GS and other R-bikes, the relatively few of these incidents surely will not.

Good luck with healing, and I hope it all turns out OK for you in the end!

Jim

[kwh]

Originally Posted by JimVonBaden

Red,

I was sorry to hear of your accident, and glad you were not more hurt.

I would think you can try a lawsuit, but the odds of winning are not very good. Since the bike was previously wrecked, it would be very easy for BMW to use that as the cause of the "defect".

I am not saying that it is not a real defect, but I know how lawyers and the law works. That there were others, even if fully documented that they all happened just going down the road, wont significantly effect your outcome unless you can prove this has happend just because of a defect and not a wreck. Several of the others labeled with the same "defect" were also wrecked in such a way, either during the accident, or from previous accidents, that it would be very hard to prove.

I hope BMW steps up to the plate, but I would not count on it. Despite the outpouring of sympathy here, if the issues with the FD and EWS were not enough to get BMW forced into a recall on hundreds of R1200GS and other R-bikes, the relatively few of these incidents surely will not.

Good luck with healing, and I hope it all turns out OK for you in the end!

Jim

Jim, I wouldn't know enough to know whether you were right or wrong about whether BMW can be properly held to account for this, although morally they absolutely should be in my opinion, given that they obviously knew about the issue and redesigned the part to fix it. However, I did take a look at the kind of thing that does trigger NHTSA safety recalls (and the same kind of recalls from VOSA here in the UK) , and you have to think that if (to pick a random example) a fuel filter that may clog on some Harley models (and may cause poor running or non starting, and which could therefore in very remotely conceivable circumstances contribute to an accident if it happened at a critical moment) is enough reason to initiate a full officially sanctioned safety recall for rectification, then faillure-prone front fork castings must surely be a contender. I've seen what prima-facie are the most ridiculous things trigger recalls (along side a smattering of obvious and serious ones of course).

Perhaps I don't understand the criteria used by statutory bodies like VOSA in the UK or the NHTSA for initiating mandatory recalls. What do they need? Do they need the manufacturer to 'fess up' or are they capable of looking at the evidence themselves and holding a manufacturer to account?

I firmly believe that BMW redesigning and strengthening the fork castings before switching production halfway through 2003 is a 'smoking gun'. What other credible explanation could there be for that? What would the paperwork around it show?

[mjg]

Originally Posted by kwh

Perhaps I don't understand the criteria used by statutory bodies like VOSA in the UK or the NHTSA for initiating mandatory recalls. What do they need? Do they need the manufacturer to 'fess up' or are they capable of looking at the evidence themselves and holding a manufacturer to account?

I can't speak for NHTSA at all and only as a pundit who has had some experience working with the CPSC instigating recalls: AIUI the regulatory body ultimately has the authority to mandate a recall.

However, if you notice most consumer product recalls are specifically designated 'voluntary' which means the manufacturer has agreed with the CPSC that action is necessary but they're doing it absent any legal coercion. IME it's very rare that recalls are 'forced'.

It might also be worth pointing out the more public attention happens the more likely a company is to respond: if this kind of thing happened to me and BMW (after I reasonably approached them and made my case, probably including a polite letter from an attorney) balked about making it right I'd give serious consideration to contacting a local television station or newspaper to see if they'd be interested in a 'big bad company knows they are hurting innocent motorcyclists' story.

You'd need to avoid making unsupportable allegations to maintain your credibility but if you handled it properly it might do some good.

Like I said earlier I don't know if this is a 'defect' but it remains my opinion BMW would be foolish not to take care of their customers.

And to respond to another point: that BMW changed the design would likely be handled by saying 'new and improved does not imply old and defective'. Those lawyers are subtle people.

[kwh]

Originally Posted by mjg

And to respond to another point: that BMW changed the design would likely be handled by saying 'new and improved does not imply old and defective'. Those lawyers are subtle people.

Lawyers? Subtle?

I wonder what the BMW Motorrad internal paper trail surrounding those design changes might reveal? I'm guessing that it would be nothing that they'd want the world to read, but... well, that might just be my unreasonable cynicism at work!

[mjg]

Originally Posted by kwh

I wonder what the BMW Motorrad internal paper trail surrounding those design changes might reveal? I'm guessing that it would be nothing that they'd want the world to read, but... well, that might just be my unreasonable cynicism at work!

If they're on top of things there won't be any documented mention of a potential design weakness: certain things are only talked about around the office water cooler...

I reckon the rationale would be something like 'We want to improve riding satisfaction'.

And the only thing that's unreasonable is not to be cynical.

[kwh]

Originally Posted by mjg

If they're on top of things there won't be any documented mention of a potential design weakness: certain things are only talked about around the office water cooler...

I reckon it the rationale would be something like 'We want to improve riding satisfaction'.

And the only thing that's unreasonable is not to be cynical.

It appears that you are even more cynical than me ...

Or if you are right about that...

Here's the current VOSA recall list for the BMW F-series... it doesn't seem like it's a 1 for 1 match with the NHTSA recall list, though...

http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosa/apps/rec...&Search=Search

[mjg]

Originally Posted by kwh

it doesn't seem like it's a 1 for 1 match with the NHTSA recall list, though...

Demonstrating the subjectivity of defining 'defect' or merely a lack of international communication? I know jack squat about how other countries handle these things...

[LostInTheDirt]

sgk3,
Very sorry to hear about the wreck up in AB. Are you still stuck there? I remember our conversation in North Dakota very clearly. Thank you for the tips on riding through the rest of North Dakota, the wind was so strong that it almost pulled me off of the bike! Twice!
Kind of scary to think that I ran into both you and Red shortly before your respective forks disintegrated. If I am the jinx in this I sincerely apologize.
In hindsight, you are totally right, I am very happy that the wife and her 650 didn't join me on the trip. She has reluctantly agreed to stay off of her 650 until I figure out exactly when hers was manufactured and when exactly in 03 did BMW make the change. Does anyone have a side by side pic of the "old" fork and the "newly redisgned" fork?

For everyone else, quick tip I learned from my 4000 mile trip from Seattle, WA to Buffalo, NY and then on to Chicago, where there were many areas with no cell coverage, I avoided highways:
I traveled with a SPOT satellite messenger, little orange device that can send a text message and/or email to contacts (that you set up ahead of time) for "I'm OK, just checking in" or a HELP message (I set mine up with,"Need Mechanical assist please call AAA for me) or if you are in need of medical there is a 911 button that will send a rescue team for you. And since its a GPS tracker they know exactly where you are. My family was able to track my progress all the way across. It was nice to know that if I needed it and couldn't get a cell phone call out that I could still get help if I needed it. Also comes in handy for an excuse to get WAY off the beaten path, as in "Don't worry if I need help I can get it, so lets go get lost!"
Find everything else out at www.findmespot.com.
sgk3 - props for getting the bike up - I've dislocated both shoulders and from someone who knows that level of pain -- Kudos!

[Benesesso]

>"Most importantly, I'd like to be able to add further proof to BMW that there is a serious defect that need to be addressed."<

My first post here. All of the broken pieces should be rounded up and sent/taken to a good metallurgical lab. Probably too late, but do not let the broken surfaces touch (or be touched by) anything hard. These fork failures are probably fatigue cracks, and aluminum retains the evidence very well. The lab. will use a scanning electron microscope (SEM) on the fractured surfaces, and probably be able to find the origin of the crack. They will also be able to see where the sudden, final fracture started (the surfaces will look completely different in the SEM). The will probably be able to find any evidence of damage caused by a previous accident. If the fatigue crack started at a point with no previous sudden cracking, they should be able to state in their report that in their opinion, any previous accident did NOT cause the subsequent development of the fatigue crack.

The next step would be for your lawyer to find out if BMW was aware of all this, and how many forks have cracked.