ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > Regional forums > Central From Da Nort Woods to the Plane States
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12-21-2008, 09:36 AM   #796
Bruno T . OP
N8YQ
 
Bruno T .'s Avatar
 
Joined: May 2006
Location: Detroit area, MI
Oddometer: 1,807
Quote:
Originally Posted by andywaddell
Big difference is that there ARE no American equivalents of dirtbikes, or of most street bikes.
Agreed.

Equivalence is subjective though. I had a Toyota Tundra owner in Colorado tell me "too bad there is no domestic truck like this available". I couldn't believe he was saying that, but i don't squat about P/U trucks and even less about what's important to him. Maybe for his criteria, there are no equivalents.

I think that enthusiasts like us have a very limited impact on overall sales. The business revolves around volume sales, products like the Camry, P/U trucks, etc. Products that i have absolutely no interest in. In those segments, i believe the domestic options are very good, but they struggle with perception problems.

Domestic auto companies are generally regarded as having inferior quality, resale, dealer support, etc. I think this negative perception is exaggerated and undeserved, but unfortunately it is prevalent and difficult to overcome.
Bruno T . is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2008, 10:17 AM   #797
jpwilhelm
A.K.A Jonathan
 
jpwilhelm's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: Southeast Michigan
Oddometer: 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by btome
That's right !

You should sell all those damn imports in your garage and replace them with Harley's.
haha, Well said.
Just like America does not make Motorcycles for ADV.
The big three does not make cars that suits me or most of my friends out of state.

Really, I just like import design and performance better than American. Just does not compare to me. And No there is no American Car I would want at this time. I would take a Jeep rubicon if I lived in a warm place so I could keep the top down all the time. That's about it.

In a car I like a AWD Turbo that handles like it is on rails. In a truck I like the expedition (not Ford) or rally capable and look. I have always wanted a Xterra since they came out, so I got one, my second choice was the new Toyota FJ. Hummer H3 competes with those but the gas mileage is not as good as the Xterra, plus I don't like the look of the H3. If I was in the market for a sports car I would get a Nissan GT-R nothing American can touch it.

The big three refused to do sport compact cars, that are big all over the country, That's all teens and 20 something get for the past 20 years. Hell all of my friends where I grew up with on the east coast had cars like Acura integras, Honda Crx, VW gti, Toyota supra. Now all in their 30's the ones I am still in touch with drive, Mini's, BMW's, Audi's, and one has a Subaru STi.

Until I moved to the Detroit area I did not know people even drove American anymore, besides the work trucks, taxi's and some of the big SUVs in the hip hop crowd.
We had no ties to the big three in the rest of the country. So when all of our parents got burned by buying Ford or GM in the 80's when they made cars that were meant to fall apart in 1-3 years. They got Honda's and never looked back. Also not many people I know outside of MI get leases, they buy their cars, and they want it to last and to have a high resale value
We got our Honda CRV because, the residual value of the car is better than any other if we wanted to sell it. You can get a brand new Escape today (if you have the credit) for the same price as a 3 year old Honda CRV if that tells you anything. just last year they were the same price new.

I give you that the quality is better now than in the 80s and 90s, but still not up to par. Just one of many examples, My wife's uncle just got a Grand Cherokee and Liberty lease last year and this week the transmission went in the GC, multiple body parts have came off the liberty and the defrost is nt working. I heard this is one of many reasons MB split ways with Chrysler. They were not concerned about quality especially in Jeep anymore. Jeep is the best thing they have and will be the only one snatched up if they go under.

I know most everyone in here is biased toward Detroit, but have you ever thought what would happen if you could get your way and everyone stoped buying imports. Well a lot of the south would be out of jobs and then they could no longer buy those f150s and Rams the southern boys like so much. The same suppliers both import and big 3 use could go under. The big three needs the imports to stay alive.

Have you guys ever really wondered why the imports are doing better in the rest of the country? Just think about it.
Do you really deep down in side think the big three make a superior product? Do you really think they are making products Americans want?
Figures don't lie. Toyota stocks are at 64.38 and Ford is at 2.95 end of trading Friday.
The Big three were loosing ground in the best of times for car sales, what makes you think they will do good in the worst of times when you need a 750 or higher credit score and a lot of cash to get a loan.
Do you really want the big three to stay on the same path they are on now? If so why?
The hand out from the government (Loan they will never be able to pay back) is only enabling them not to make the serious changes they need to survive in the long run.
A complete revamp will be necessary for them to be viable again. They need to get out of Detroit and see what people want to drive, in other words open there eyes. That means wiping the slate clean and starting over, including all current car models. I think Chrysler is a lost cause, Jeep should be sold to a company that cares about Jeep, dodge should be merged or sold and the Chrysler brand should be dissolved its worthless.

Kind of like AA, stop the denial, address the issue, clean the house, do what ever it takes to get better.

As far as the UAW, they are going to be out of a job anyway if this continues. Cars are not moving at all, and will not be for at least a year. So why should the rest of the US pay for their wages, health care and pensions, that deal was between them and the big three not the UAW and the American tax payer. A lot of Americans will loose there jobs this year and loose their health care and not be able to pay for there own (like myself), So why should our taxes pay for these benefits of the UAW. The UAW and Big 2.5 management both need to get their pay and benefits down to a point so that it will save the company, if they don't they will loose everything. That is a fact.
__________________
'07 KTM 300 XC-W
'01 WR426F
'08 KLR 650
'04 CR50F
GLDS

jpwilhelm screwed with this post 12-21-2008 at 10:25 AM
jpwilhelm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2008, 10:24 AM   #798
andywaddell
'tard bike king
 
andywaddell's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Location: Michigan
Oddometer: 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by btome
I think that enthusiasts like us have a very limited impact on overall sales. The business revolves around volume sales, products like the Camry, P/U trucks, etc. Products that i have absolutely no interest in. In those segments, i believe the domestic options are very good, but they struggle with perception problems.

Domestic auto companies are generally regarded as having inferior quality, resale, dealer support, etc. I think this negative perception is exaggerated and undeserved, but unfortunately it is prevalent and difficult to overcome.
Yes, the niche markets like true offroaders are indeed, just that, niche markets. The "bread and butter" of car companies is with the family sedan market (and until the recent past, fullsize trucks), and you're right that the domestics these days are of equal and better quality to the foreign competitors like the Camry and Accord. You're also correct that the domestics have a big negative perception to overcome. But 20-25 years ago is a long time...your dad's 1979 PoS Oldsmobile wagon or whatever has nothing to do with what's on the showroom floor today.
__________________
ADW
2008 KLR650
2004 CRF250X
2001 XR650R (sold)
www.andywaddell.com
andywaddell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2008, 12:43 PM   #799
JRobertson
Gnarly Adventurer
 
JRobertson's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2007
Location: Sterling Heights MI
Oddometer: 165
JRobertson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2008, 12:50 PM   #800
JRobertson
Gnarly Adventurer
 
JRobertson's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2007
Location: Sterling Heights MI
Oddometer: 165
Its not red but its cool


JRobertson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2008, 12:57 PM   #801
JRobertson
Gnarly Adventurer
 
JRobertson's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2007
Location: Sterling Heights MI
Oddometer: 165
JP are those 35s
I think I might just a little taller tire. I like the looks of Bruno's air intake. I think we would need to cut the fender to mount. LR3s involve no cutting.
JRobertson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2008, 01:08 PM   #802
JRobertson
Gnarly Adventurer
 
JRobertson's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2007
Location: Sterling Heights MI
Oddometer: 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRobertson
Hay jpwilhelm, I herd X-Terras Rule, and Discovery's Drool!

The silver ones are the fastest!
I was only trying to rib Bruno, because I haven,t seen him in a while. JP and I have both wanted to go off roading with him. SORRY EVERYONE
JRobertson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2008, 01:34 PM   #803
John-610
John W.
 
John-610's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2006
Location: Michigan, Oakland County
Oddometer: 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpwilhelm
haha, Well said.
Just like America does not make Motorcycles for ADV.
The big three does not make cars that suits me or most of my friends out of state.

....

If I was in the market for a sports car I would get a Nissan GT-R nothing American can touch it.
JP - Road & Track does not agree. Please see below

http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/d...echDetails.pdf

Yes the GT-R is a great car and won a comparison by a slim marging over a a Z06 and a 911 .

I also have searched and searched for a good summary of perceptions opinions on US Auto Industy. Your write up is very good.

JD Power Long Term Dependability does rank Lexus 1 in 2008 however Cadillac and Mercury rank in front of Toyota and Honda. Nissan is below industry average. Lincoln, Buick, and Ford are all above industry average.

Like Congress many people do not look at facts, such as the Habour report on efficiency or that the Chevrolet Malibu bested the Hoda Accord and Toyota Camry in 2008 Mid Size initial quality.

I would be intersted in your opinion of the 2008 Cadillac CTS winner of more award than can be named here. I have been in many cars and I do believe this is World Class.

I think Bruno hit the nail on the head Perception is the enemy. Time magazine just published a 20 year old article on GM last week complete with pictures from Flint. I can understand why the perceptions exist. Only 5 to 10 years of excellent product execution can fix this.

The 2007 Tundra was not recommended by Consumer Reports because of so many issues. Did not see this on the news.

Thank you for your insight would love to discuss further.

Also here is the link for initial quality - Please note Chevrolet and Honda are equal in Overall score.

http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings...e-#page-anchor

Many people do not want the facts to get in the way of a good story.

John

Vehicle Dependability Study - http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/new...spx?ID=2008115
John-610 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2008, 02:18 PM   #804
JRobertson
Gnarly Adventurer
 
JRobertson's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2007
Location: Sterling Heights MI
Oddometer: 165
This looks like fun

JRobertson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2008, 03:37 PM   #805
John-610
John W.
 
John-610's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2006
Location: Michigan, Oakland County
Oddometer: 125
Not confusing quaility with efficiency but the perceptions in productivity appear way off of reality.

Habour Report News Release -

Driven by more consistent, leaner processes and buyouts of tens of thousands workers, the Detroit Three automakers in 2007 nearly erased the productivity deficit against their Japanese-based competitors, despite declining production and shrinking market share.

The difference among the Big Six from the most to least productive in terms of total manufacturing labor (Assembly, Stamping, Engine and Transmission) has dropped to 3.50 hours per vehicle (or about $260 per vehicle), down from 10.51 hours (or $790 per vehicle) in 2003.
John-610 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2008, 04:48 PM   #806
John-610
John W.
 
John-610's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2006
Location: Michigan, Oakland County
Oddometer: 125
This is my last post on this and then I will enjoy the Holidays. In Bruno's post the Tundra owner is not alone, I find many foreign car buyers that want to believe they made the best choice just as any car owner does. No one wants to look stupid put another way. This again is where perception and reality can diverge, just as the Tundra owner was eager to tell Bruno.

The Tundra has had many quality problems not very well publicized. Not to pick on the Tundra but here are examples below. If you ask Joe Schmo on the street he would probably not be able to name one.

Tudra Issues -
Failed Ball Joints - Led to recall
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...ll_joints.html

Camshaft Issue - Can Crack and Fail
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...ta_tundra.html

Potential Drive Shaft Failures -
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...ta_tundra.html

There are also known reports of brake issues.

Additionally the Tundra received a Four Star crash rating and vs Chevy and Ford receiving 5 Star rating. Also the Chevy and Ford get better MPG, apples to apples.

If you told this to an average Toyota Tundra buyer they would probably balk at you.

Perception is the Toyota will run forever with not a problem.

JW
John-610 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2008, 05:37 PM   #807
timdog
a.k.a. Josh
 
timdog's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: Troy, MI
Oddometer: 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRobertson
This looks like fun

I would be up for some winter camping! I was just thinking about it today. I live on a dead end street. The snowplow pushed all the snow to the end. I tunneled out a fort for the kids. When we were inside, it was surprisingly comfy. I bet I could have slept in there with my down bag. Has anybody ever done this? I would like to try it just to say I did.
timdog is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2008, 05:45 PM   #808
matkal
Assault Commuter
 
matkal's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2005
Location: MI's Thumb :)
Oddometer: 1,605
As of now....8:45pm, I have 5 foot......yes, 5 foot!!
Drifts in my yard. Say FUCK to Michigan!

Pics tomorrow. :)
__________________
'09 R1200GS

Helmet laws suck. They interfere with natural selection.


ATGATT 35:12-14
"And Atgatt courted Motgatt, and took her for a wife.
And lo, he compromised with Atgmott, and verily she conceived,
and did bear a son, Notgatt. And Notgatt roamed naked,
and did bequeath his skin to the roads. And he was a wild ass and an outcast,
and was hated through all the land. And his forehead was branded, and he did be
come a sign and a warning to all the people."
matkal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2008, 05:55 PM   #809
DetR6oit
Gnarly Adventurer
 
DetR6oit's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2008
Location: Warren, MI
Oddometer: 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRobertson
JP are those 35s
I think I might just a little taller tire. I like the looks of Bruno's air intake. I think we would need to cut the fender to mount. LR3s involve no cutting.
Is that one yours? At the badlands park?



here is my TJ, has different tires and wheels now though all these pictures are kind of old



DetR6oit screwed with this post 03-16-2009 at 11:25 AM
DetR6oit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2008, 05:58 PM   #810
DetR6oit
Gnarly Adventurer
 
DetR6oit's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2008
Location: Warren, MI
Oddometer: 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by timdog
I would be up for some winter camping! I was just thinking about it today. I live on a dead end street. The snowplow pushed all the snow to the end. I tunneled out a fort for the kids. When we were inside, it was surprisingly comfy. I bet I could have slept in there with my down bag. Has anybody ever done this? I would like to try it just to say I did.

anyone ever done what slept in a snow shelter? Ever heard of igloos



Winter camping is no problem, just need a sleeping pad to get you off the ground and a good bag rated to the right temperature. Cheap sleeping bags ratings aren't always accurate also.
DetR6oit is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 10:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014