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Old 09-05-2008, 02:07 PM   #1
Ratman OP
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Location: Baja is good
Oddometer: 1,120
shock rebuild, Showa, Air over

This isn't going to be useful to many of you, but I've needed to get this down on the web for a while now.......and you can't get these parts anymore so here goes.

These shocks can be found on '80s Honda V4s, (Sabres and Interceptors, CX 500&650s and maybe some gold wings).

First you want to get your big bucks shop in order with your tools all set up. Ha
From Shock rebuild


The second thing you want to do is test your shock for being seized up. What usually goes bad with these shocks is that a plastic top out stop, inside the shock, breaks up and the little pieces eventually block the the valving which seizes the shock.

The only way to fix it is to take it apart and clean the holes out. This shock is not meant to be serviced beyond changing the fluid, and changing the lip seal and dust boot at the big end of the outside can.

It takes a few tricks to go beyond that..........still none of it is rocket science.

TO TEST THE SHOCK......takes a little leverage to create about 800 lbs of force.
From Shock rebuild


BOUNCE UP AND DOWN ON THE 2x4.....if the shock moves both ways it is prolly still a good shock. You shouldn't lose any oil in this process, but I put the bucket under just in case.
From Shock rebuild


So to take the shock apart the first step is to remove the seal at the bottom of the can. It's held in by a captured snap ring. A steel ring holds the snap ring in. That steel ring has to be pounded down into the can about a 1/16 inch in order to allow the snap ring to come out. It and the seal beneath it will move down as much as 3/16 inch.
In this picture I've already pounded that steal ring down about a 1/16th inch.
From Shock rebuild


Next you need to get a couple picks or small screw drivers or knife and one or more of the others in order to pick that snap ring out. Dental picks are good also. Its not under much tension.
A better picture of these things can be seen, once blown up, at .....
http://picasaweb.google.com/p.ratfab...10128105313618
From Shock rebuild

I beat that ring down with a 12" screwdriver as a punch and hammer.

From Shock rebuild
I'm rebuilding one of these shocks now, so I'll have more pictures soon.

BYW, critical shock parts are hard to find, if not impossible. Like the bottom of the outside Can seal is really hard to find, But it is a seal that has an ID (of the cylinder that it fits) 65 MM and an OD (ID of the can that it fits) of 88MM, and a thickness of 14MM. The stocker is a triple lip seal, but in a pinch a Double with a spring energizer would no doubt work, and is available from a Seal/bearing distributor....for instance.
http://www.rocketseals.com/catalog/o...iameter?page=3
Edited on 2/25/14... Here's another seal that I found..still only a 2 lip seal, but it is high pressure. The rubbrer thickness right below the spring is what makes them high pressure or not.
http://www.bestpartsonline.com/servl...-Radial/Detail TC or this one is TVC
I'd choose one of those 12mm thickness seals. They are not high pressure seals, but I wouldn't hesitate to put 50PSI behind that seal. That's not really high pressure in my book.
Here's a seal that one fellow used with good results. The 25433 is a generic seal # of that size...don't know it is always a dual lipped seal, though.
The name on the box is: DICHTOMATIK TCM part # 65x88x12TC-BX , also says replaces 25433

The dust Boot is no longer available, so I believe that you can find a CV joint boot that with a little triming will do the job. Also an Axle Boot from a Pre 1969 VW can be made to work.
From moto mechanicals


This photo shows a double lip on the right and a third lip on the left. There is a spring energizer on both ends of the seal, but I think only the spring on the right is absolutly necessary. The left lip is a dust and debree wiper
From moto mechanicals


From moto mechanicals



From Shock rebuild
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Old 09-05-2008, 06:10 PM   #2
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Ho'made press

So once we have the snap ring out of the bottom of the can, it's time to take the snap ring off the top which holds the whole shock together.

At this time I put the shock in an oil drain pan and cover it up with a heavy towel. At that time I put a 100 lbs of air in the shock, and stand back. In a short time that air will blow the seal out of the shock, and most of the oil will be caught in that pan.

It is best to fill the shock with water. It allows a smaller volume for air pressure, and gently pushes out the Seal. I did this shock after draining the oil, and the seal release was explosive. The towel dampen the seal's escape and isn't dangerous but it can be hard on the seal if you should be trying to use the seal over.

I built a home press from things from Home Depot. If you should have a bench or standup press, it would be better, but you can get the idea of what I've done from these pictures.
From Shock rebuild


None of this is written in stone. The procedure is dependent on the bits and pieces that you have laying around. Up near the aluminum top but buried about a 1/4 down in the can there is another snap ring that holds the can on the shock. It is under pressure from the spring inside the can, and that is the spring that holds the Motorcycle up in the rear.

I use those 1.5 inch bolts on top of the can so that I'll have some access to that snap ring on the base of the Aluminum eye.

Once in the press, I turn the nuts down to compress the spring in the can. It only has to compress the spring about 3/8 of an inch. When you compress that spring the Aluminum upper eye also moves down with the can, then the eye has to be pried up out of the can so that you can remove the snap ring.
From Shock rebuil


once that snap ring is removed then you can let the tension off the
can and it and the spring can can be removed.

This is what you are left with......
From Shock rebuild


and then this............
From Shock rebuild


The next step is to knock that 1" steel collar off the shock.
I will use a special ground punch to accomplish that. After that
you can get to the shock's inners that need to be worked on.

From Shock rebuild


More later..............
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Ratman.......Pete .... My Solo Continental Divide Ride
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Old 09-07-2008, 07:04 PM   #3
Ratman OP
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I've taken that collar off a few different ways, but the way that works best is to take a punch and grind the end to fit under that 1' collar and smack it with a hammer till it slides up off the shock.
From Shock rebuild
From Shock rebuild

From Shock rebuild


Next with the collar up I prepare the shock to be reassembled by drilling and taping, 10 each, holes for #10 set screws 3/16ths inch long. I make these holes 5/16" down from the top. It could be welded back together, but I like being able take the shock apart the next time by just taking out the set screws.
I randomly mark 10 marks around the diameter. That way it is easy to line the holes up in the correct pattern when assembling.
From Shock rebuild
If you don't have a drill press.............At one time I had 13 drill presses.

From Shock rebuild


Once that collar is up then you find the shock has been assembled by folding over the top of the shock to keep the shock together. That fold has to be removed. You can grind it off, but this time I choose to cut it off with a hack saw.
From Shock rebuild


From Shock rebuild


From Shock rebuild


http://picasaweb.google.com/p.ratfab...46752610006786
This pic shows the folded over top of the shock tube. If you go to the above URL the picture can be blown up to see better. Also those taped holes should be deep enough to allow the set screw to be flush with the tube so the collar can be slide back over the tube.
From Shock rebuild


Now you're ready to cut that folded rim off. Cut about a 1/16 inch deep all the way around. That allows you to brass hammer the shock guts out by beating on the lower shock mount.
From Shock rebuild


The guts are read to come out now after that ring has been cut loose by tapping on the lower shock mt ears.
From Shock rebuild


Here it is coming apart.
From Shock rebuild


Almost apart now.........
From Shock rebuild


Now tap this part up out of the tube.
From Shock rebuild


From Shock rebuild


http://picasaweb.google.com/p.ratfab...49165954845842
This picture in the blown up version clearly shows the bits and piece of that plastic top out stop that has disintegrated and is plugging up the shock valves.
From Shock rebuild


Here's what you have now and I'm ready to take the shock piston apart and clean the valves out.
From Shock rebuild


This end also presses out for cleaning and then back in again for re-assembly.
From Shock rebuild
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Ratman.......Pete .... My Solo Continental Divide Ride
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Old 09-08-2008, 02:03 PM   #4
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cleaning

To take the shock piston apart You screw the nut off the bottom. When they make these shocks the factory screws the nut on the shaft, then they stake the end of the shaft so the nut won't come off. Then they put a couple plates onto the end of the nut and fold over the nut to hold those plates in.

Well, I've always just forced that nut off with a big wrench. It comes off hard but it doesn't screw up the threads in the nut. When I get the nut off I grind a little of the stake on the end of the shaft away so the nut is easier to put back on. I torque the nut to 40 lbs....they hold. If you are worried about it, use some red locktite.
From Shock rebuild


Once you get the nut off then the shock parts need to be cleaned. You can clean the hole in the shaft with a blow air and a needle. Here is what I found in this shock more easily seen in a blow up at.....
http://picasaweb.google.com/p.ratfab...48437145549394
From Shock rebuild


And the other side.....
From Shock rebuild

From Shock rebuild

From Shock rebuild


From Shock rebuild


From Shock rebuild


Once you get everything clean of plastic bits, simply reverse the procedure and put it back together.

I will be back soon to help with the reassembly.
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....and of course, Luck beats good...
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Old 09-09-2008, 11:43 PM   #5
TARider
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Showa Rebuild

Hi Ratman
I ran into same problems with my bike. What bike model is the one you worked on? I actually cleaned mine by dismantling the top ear where the rebound adjuster is. In the process I broke the little toothed rebound adjuster wheel. Sounds like you've done a few. you wouldnt have a spare little toothed wheel laying around you can sell/part with? Good write up
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Old 09-11-2008, 05:54 PM   #6
Ratman OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TARider
Hi Ratman
I ran into same problems with my bike. What bike model is the one you worked on? I actually cleaned mine by dismantling the top ear where the rebound adjuster is. In the process I broke the little toothed rebound adjuster wheel. Sounds like you've done a few. you wouldnt have a spare little toothed wheel laying around you can sell/part with? Good write up
TARider, you are prolly stuck with getting another shock. I've broken a few of those little gear actuators myself, so I'm behind on that part myself. I've never felt any ride difference from that adjustment, so I don't think it is very important.

My bike is an '84 V65 Sabre.
From Colorado-Utah Off Road




My hats off to you for working on your old shock.
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Old 09-11-2008, 07:08 PM   #7
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To reassemble the shock, simply put the spring on the shock and the Can on top of that......being sure to line up the air line where it was when you took it apart......and line up the top eye with the bottom eye.
From Shock rebuild


The shock must be put back in the press with three of the 1.5 inch bolts on top as in a subsequent pictures.
From Shock rebuild


Crank enough pressure on the shock to get the second ring groove up out of the can. Make sure the shock was totally extended before this assembly process. Then grease the oring up and put it in the second groove. At this time put the steel snap ring in the top groove.
From Shock rebuild


Then take the pressure off the shock and take it out of the press. When you take the pressure off the shock wiggle that shock eye around a bit. I have cut an edge off that oring by it being not centered when the can comes up.
From Shock rebuild


This is the general alignment of the air hose on a V65 Honda Sabre....you should be aware of where it is located on the shock that you are working on.
From Shock rebuild


Next install the seal and backup ring in the bottom of the shock can. It must go further into the shock so the snap ring can be put back in below them. After the snap ring is installed then air the shock to 75 lbs. That will move the seal and back up ring down into their final positions.

The next procedure will be the easy way to put shock oil in the Shock.
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Ratman.......Pete .... My Solo Continental Divide Ride
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Old 09-12-2008, 05:11 PM   #8
Ratman OP
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Ok, these shocks for the v65 Sabre require 16 ounces of Shock oil. I like 10 Weight. I figure the smaller Diameter Version of these shocks take 13 ounces.

The easy way to put oil in these shocks is to put a 30 inch piece of 1/2 inch ID clear vinyl hose over the end of the air hose. First take the air valve out of the shock's air hose.

Then you take a container, and measure the correct amount of fluid into it. Fill the clear tube with fluid from that container, and then blow on the tube with your mouth. Repeat until all the fluid is inside the shock. It only takes about 4 tubes full of oil for the 16 ounces.

If you have a source of air pressure you can use that.....but the mouth thing is how I do it.
From Shock rebuild


Tuning the shock can be done with thinner or thicker oils. You can empty some oil out of the shock by pressurizing the shock, then lay the bike over on the right side on some jack stands or something, maybe a bunch of sleeping bags, then let some oil out. Add an equal amount that you let out of either mineral spirits or STP motor honey to either thin or thicken the oil for a different ride.

Of course, if you don't want to lay the bike over, you can take the shock off to go thicker or thinner.
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Old 09-13-2008, 10:09 AM   #9
TARider
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Showa Rebuild

Wow Ratman! What-a-Rig! Stopping that baby, I bet requires some planning.
Do you have a system to use the trailer wheel brakes?? I get the feeling you're kinda of crafty fella and may have come up with a stopping system Thanks for the reply.
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Old 09-14-2008, 06:40 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TARider
Wow Ratman! What-a-Rig! Stopping that baby, I bet requires some planning.
Do you have a system to use the trailer wheel brakes?? I get the feeling you're kinda of crafty fella and may have come up with a stopping system Thanks for the reply.
Yes, TAR, its like driving a Semi, you need to be thinking ahead, but I do have an idea about brakes, and it needs them. I have just completed a nearly 4000 mile trip with it to tour Utah and Colorado.

I use a Sabre front fork to make the trailer's tongue. I have added a spring to make it spring loaded both ways, mostly to keep the shock off the hitch.......but I intend to make that fork movement actuate a front master cylinder from a Sabre which will work Disk brakes on the Trailer. The trailer and Bike are nearly 500 lbs.

From moto trailer
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Old 09-15-2008, 09:56 AM   #11
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These shocks have an adjustment that is cable operated. Often the cable has an outer end of the cable sheath that is broken.

I've come up with a fix that reclaims the old cable.

Here's the problem. That threaded piece is broken off of the knurled piece to the right.
From moto mechanicals


The nut on the left tightens the frame mt up to the knurled part. So I split the nut like so......
From moto mechanicals


Then you can put the mount between the two halves of the nut. Voila, like new
From moto mechanicals


A lot of Honda choke cables use the same type cable and are broken the same way. It beats trying to find a new cable.

Good luck.
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Old 09-18-2008, 09:40 AM   #12
Ratman OP
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aome questions and Answers

From a curious reader:
> I guess what you want to do in rebuilding the shock is replace the seal & oil and clean the round thing. Nothing else?

Me: And if the oil that comes out doesn't have dust or particals in it
then you don't need to clean the round thing or take it apart to that
level.

> Regarding the collar I think you are saying it is crimped so
> reassembly requires either welding or doing the set screws.


Me: Right on!

>You mention the O ring at the top - does it usually need to be
> replaced or can it be reused?


Me: Yes that top oring can be used over. I forgot to measure that
oring's size this time. I had a leak when I reassembled the shock at
that top oring.......I had to take it apart and use some silicone
sealer on that oring. I'd recommend that on the first assemble.

> Other than the seal leaking it sounds like the other problem is plugged
> passageways due to > disintegrated plastic top out stop - does the
> plastic top out stop need to be replaced too?


I've never seen anything wrong with them except that crushed top
out cushion. No I don't replace them. I did replace those cushions on
two shocks with a piece of those brown bondo applicator. It looks
like the same stuff. I did one for a shock that I was using. It
failed inside of a couple months. And I did one near the same time
for a customer in Texas. I kept track of him and he never had any
trouble with his. But I don't hear any banging inside the shock, so
figure it is best without it.

> But the real conclusion is even when the Japs didn't mean for stuff to be rebuilt they still
> made it in a way that allows rebuilding.


My real incentive for working on these shocks, way back when, was
to change the valving to improve the freeway ride. I changed the
valving about 20 times on my Sabre back when I was doing it, and never
really made an improvement like I imagined I would.

The best I did was to lighten up the oil which improved the jolting
that you get on the freeway, but wasn't a help on over all
rideability. Still I prefer it over a shock with a heavier oil.

I may get back to trying to improve the ride one day. I have some new ideas.
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Old 05-26-2009, 01:26 AM   #13
giarcg
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Excellent!

Thanks Ratman...great write up! You save my ass....literally!

One suggestion...fill the shock with oil while upside down and just prior to installing seal. No messing around with the tube.

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Old 01-30-2010, 06:12 PM   #14
RedRocket
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman
These shocks have an adjustment that is cable operated. Often the cable has an outer end of the cable sheath that is broken.

I've come up with a fix that reclaims the old cable.


Nice. I think that'll fix the choke cable on my PC800.

So, um, would you rebuild a shock for me?
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Old 02-09-2010, 08:10 PM   #15
Ratman OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedRocket
Nice. I think that'll fix the choke cable on my PC800.

So, um, would you rebuild a shock for me?
That's funny RedRocket.....it was a broken choke cable on a PC800 that got me into that repair.

What kind of Shock do you want repaired?
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